Ptsd Issues [Archive] - Point Man Ministries

danausmc

11-26-2003, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by Sgt. Duffy-USMC
Dear Dana,

Notice how few people open this PTSD forum? I can't speak for anyone but myself, and I am not attempting too.

It terrifies me.

Opening this forum means to me that I might have to deal with memories long since buried, stuffed, crammed, and shoved aside as much as I am capable of doing. That's called DENIAL.

Who cares what it's called. I have done it for so long that I know no other way to deal with it. The actions that caused the PTSD took place over months and months in the jungles. That was horrible enough. The memories/flashbacks, re-run the tapes at high speed and in a matter of minutes, sometimes only seconds I can re-live it all. Instantaneously.

I know from reading the posts already in other forums here at the Pointman Chapel that there are at least TWO members who have considerable experience in this area. Both have already, unknowingly, opened doors for me that I have up till now kept so tightly sealed that the information contained behind those sealed doors could not be penetrated by the worst of chemical warfare. I am glad this PTSD FORUM IS HERE, whether I enter or not. Just seeing it on the list is causes a moment of fear and acts as a wake-up call to a problem that I have as yet not addressed.

I won't mention the TWO names that could hold some of the keys to my locked doors...they know who they are...but I will volunteer this much....

I'M HERE, WAITING...

Sgt. Duffy

Scare you? Scare you? me too and I cant tell you why. One day after the Platoon movie had been out for five or six months, a friend and his wife talked me and my wife into seeing it. Mistake. I never went to movies, especially Vietnam movies. I found myself talking to the actors at certain points and when we left, I was five or eight steps ahead of them. The nightmares started after that.

One time a preacher came to our Church in 1989. Was a Vietnam Vet and he was killed in Vietnam and was brought back. Like you. His testimony was intense. But at the end, he gave the call and I went forward. I was already saved, I had no Idea why I went forward. I found my self sobbing uncontrollably and all I could see were faces of my closest friends in the Nam that were all dead. All of em. I could not tak. I could not stand. I went to my seat and sat and could not move. Sat for a long time. I can tell you all the times I cried between 1969 and 1989. Then I could not stop. All I could see was my dead friends. Driving to work, I was in Vietnam.
That was all I could think about. All I could talk about.

Seemed once the door was open, I could not shut it...
BUT GOD....I went to a Pointman Conference in May 1989 and found out I was not the only one and found plenty of answers...found out if I talked to others with the same issues....who knew?.....that there was real healing in Jesus Christ. So I was introduced to PMIM and here I am, still have issues...but it is not the same.
with Jesus , along with the issues I now have peace.
Priceless.
Dana

danausmc

11-27-2003, 08:35 PM

One day when the Moving wall was in a town nearby, a young person gave me this note, from her mom who was nearby...it was on the last day and the Wall was being taken down...just want to share it with you all....
It speaks for itself...
Dana

danausmc

11-27-2003, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by Danausmc
One day when the Moving wall was in a town nearby, a young person gave me this note, from her mom who was nearby...it was on the last day and the Wall was being taken down...just want to share it with you all....
It speaks for itself...
Dana

oops, left out the attachment...

ChapMic

12-08-2003, 02:06 AM

Yup, Scary is the word! Yet when I met the demons head on, I got alot stronger at the site of the wound. Scripture, tells us that' "in our weakness we come to our FULL strength" With the dudes from Point Man and Jesus on patrol with us, the scariness transforms into the Lion with a newfound courage- promise!
Mike/ Outpost Leader/ Tucson

Lydiane

12-09-2003, 08:40 AM

I am the wife of a Vietnam veteran. One of the problems we women have with our vets is that they do not want to discuss Post Traumatic Stress issues UNLESS they have already accepted the reality of their PTSD . . . AND they are willing to work for a more tranquil life. It's hard to talk about it because talking often means triggers and NO ONE wants to go there!! I'm really proud of you guys for starting this forum. It will help both vets and their spouses. We'll just have to be patient while the momentum builds. Peace be with you all.

Sgt. Duffy-USMC

12-15-2003, 10:02 PM

Dana,

I just read your post in, "Death, etc, etc". So I decided to re-read the post you referred to here in PTSD. I also re-read the others here, and Lydias. Your comments on the Death thread are pretty much correct. I think that mostly it is the unknown factor of death that seems to draw some... for me it was because I've died three times last fall and still wonder about what I saw while in that 59 day coma. I saw things there, Dana. I lived there for two months, I felt, I smelled, I tasted. It was real... and it was on the other side, as the term is used. The story of those two months of unconsiousness and three seperate confirmed clinical deaths would fill a book the size of volume one of the encyclopedia britannica. I'm never going to tell that story. But I can tell you this much... I know... positively... from experience... that there is something... on the other side. And the Lord is waiting, my friend.

As to the "Bible Thumpers" in the Select Few? I'm at the top of that list! I mentioned you and AJ with pride, Marine. So when we get the chance to thump someone with a Bible, remember, I've got mine too. And I will thump you right back.. count on it.

As for the referral to my post above in PTSD that you mentioned? I stand on my willful admission, and your statement to the affect that "Let's live... not die", by quoting myself from above:

"Opening the PTSD forum causes me a moment of fear and acts as a wake up call to a problem that I have as yet not addressed."

You are correct in your recent post in Death... we should live our lives for today, let the past go, and move on. Well, Marine, that's what I'm trying to do.

Semper Fi

Chuck

12-15-2003, 10:20 PM

Sgt Duffy..

I don't come to this site much unless AJ or Dana need a little help or information...

But when I am here I personally look up your posts...

I wanted to just let you know "from the back seat" that you are on the right track. God is always there guiding you. He will show you the way as I'm already sure you know.

danausmc

12-16-2003, 03:09 AM

you said:
"Opening the PTSD forum causes me a moment of fear and acts as a wake up call to a problem that I have as yet not addressed."

Lets go there together and address this....
Dana

Sgt. Duffy-USMC

12-16-2003, 12:02 PM

Dana,

That rattled my cage!!!!!

Made my heart skip a couple of beats.

And sent shivers up and down my spine.

I was a substance abuse counselor and a halfway house manager. A clients first response to that type of invitation? Fight or Flight!?

My instant gut response? The same as 90% of my clients. Flight!

My instant professional response? We are on very, very dangerous ground attempting such a thing with a naked monitor and keyboard.

Do you really feel that the two of us are sufficiently qualified to handle such an effort? Have you really given thought to the potential outcome if things go wrong? Am I prepared to take a risk that my own shrink won't even touch?

Your short invitation, "...so let's address it." has got to be the most provocative statement I've heard in a very long time. It has already shown me one thing....how very thin the shell is that holds in all of these "stuffed" (Denial) emotions.

I don't know what "your plan" is to address this problem... but before we take step number two... I would like to bring it to your attention that you and I, through your statement and my contemplation concerning attempting it - has just placed the two of us smack dab in the middle of one very nasty mine field.

Think about it - very seriously Dana - because I am sure as hell going to have to. I've got sirens and whistles and warning bells going off all over the place... neither one of us can afford to twitch a muscle in this mine field without a lot of Prayer to our Lord.

Oh, I am so serious. I suggest we FREEZE! WHERE WE ARE! Pray that we know what we're doing... and don't kneel to do it!

Duffy

danausmc

12-16-2003, 06:43 PM

Yes, it is very scary. But I will tell you a few things from my own experience.
There were many times in the past that I was so scared, I did not even realize it until later, and sometimes years later. On two different ocaisions, something happened that at the time, I did not even think about. But even now, a certain sound will put me right there. SCARED all over again....plenty of adrenalin..fight or flight? Cant choose flight because I might get blown up. When someone would get blown up, we went about our business like nothing happened. But everytime the cooks lit the heater in the trash can to wash your messkit, the sound was like the detonator on a mine. Scared the hell out of ya.
I'll tell ya a vision I had. I carried a guy with MS into Church and we were praying about ??? I had to hold him up in his chair or he would fall over. So we always sat in the seats. he was two years younger than me. Anyway, I looked up and saw the sky. One of those so bright it hurt your eyes skies in Vietnam. Then I looked down and saw a mine, and there were two BIG guys holding me inches above the mine. They were a good eight feet tall. (I will post another pic and text so you get the context of this.)
Remember the whole time I am sitting in Church.
What I really think about this is, and I am committed to it is, Jesus Christ IS the answer.
Someone once said at a conference I was at the PTSD is incurable. But in the same breath says Jesus is the answer. Well if you expect me to believe God raised JESUS from the dead, why dont we believe HE is able to get us through our PTSD issues, and every other issue we can conceivably have?
Remember if it is only you and me, we are in trouble, BUT with JESUS at the center, we are now a three strand cord and not easily broken.
There are more than just you and me and this is one tough question that we in fact have worn on our sleeve, fed and watered, for at least thirty five years.
We are free, we need to start walking in that freedom or we will lose it.
I have learned a lot just watching you. The response you shared to some posts at the other site would not have been my flesh response.
I like what the boys said before they got tossed in the furnace....
Our God is able to save us from the fiery furnace, but even if he does not, we will still trust in Him and we will not bow down or worship you. (my paraphrase)
Any way, it took decades to get to where we are and all of us together can get through this quagmire.
Dana

danausmc

12-16-2003, 06:48 PM

When you counsel folks, no matter for what, do you tell them to jump in with both feet and let the chips fall? NO, I am sure you suggest little steps and more little steps and then they all equal big steps. That is my plan, pray a lot, take advantage of the prayers of others, and take little steps.
We have been locked in to this PTSD closet for so long, we cant see once we get out into the Light. And the Light will reveal everything.
Dana

danausmc

12-16-2003, 06:54 PM

And yet one more thing that I promised.....this should give you an idea about the text of my post

danausmc

12-16-2003, 08:39 PM

here is the text of an article that may explain the previous three posts. And I just deleted much of what I was going to say because I might not be ready to go there right now..I hope it is clear enough to read.
Dana

Sgt. Duffy-USMC

12-17-2003, 11:03 PM

Dana,

I don't think there is anything in your profile metioning mine fields. I know neither AJ OR CHUCK, mentioned it. I had no prior knowledge of it.

How would you account for this? I could have used any other terminology referring to combat situations...why... mine fields? Does that interest you? Does it make you wonder? Does it make you consider the idea that a power greater than ourselves is playing a role in this?

I do not fear continuing on with this with you. I ask however, that we keep it always in the "Open Forum" and never, under any set of circumstances "address the problem" privately.

You and AJ built this site, this is one of the purposes that you did so... to share. So let's keep it always in the open, where all of the members have an opportunity, if they should so choose, to enter their feeling and opinions as they individually feel is appropriate.

If that is acceptable to you, let us begin.

" I was a Counter Guerrilla Warfare Instructor - Counter Insurgency - 3rd Marine Division - Okinawa. When I face the Vietnam Veterans wall and walk slowly past it, I try to read all of the names, 58,238, and I can not remember the names of the people I trained... I can not remember their faces... and I wonder, how many of them did I fail?"

Duffy

danausmc

12-18-2003, 06:39 PM

Sgt Duffy,
you wrote....

If that is acceptable to you, let us begin.

" I was a Counter Guerrilla Warfare Instructor - Counter Insurgency - 3rd Marine Division - Okinawa. When I face the Vietnam Veterans wall and walk slowly past it, I try to read all of the names, 58,238, and I can not remember the names of the people I trained... I can not remember their faces... and I wonder, how many of them did I fail?"

Duffy

After re-reading the posts we have made......many times so far.....Im thinking ...what if...guilt...I should have...guilt....why didn't I?.....guilt....if only I would have.....guilt....played scenarios over and over and the outcome is always the same....they are, and Im not...Im here and they're not......
Did I fail them? What could I have done differently? Would it matter?
Every single person that lost their life in my platoon was blown up. Our job was to keep the road between AnHoa and Hill 37 clear of mines and booby traps. We always went the same way. Somedays were worse than others.
To answer your question about your selection of mine field for terminology....I usually dont bring it up so that is why you don't see it in a profile. Fits what we want to do here though.
I agree to keep our conversation open and in this forum also. It needs to be out where anyone can see it.
Back to my remarks...every time I see a Vet with no arms or legs, I think to myself, that should be me and WHY am I still whole? (At least on the physical side.)
Then I think I am sure glad it is them and not me and get horrible guilt for both responses.
I know that is irrational, but I also very rarely see Vets as broken, or missing limbs. To me I mostly see the person.....
But the times in the past that I don't and see the infirmity, I get all kinds of messed up.
I think that is far enough for me right now.
Semper Fi
Dana

danausmc

12-19-2003, 07:56 PM

Duffy,
here are some pics.

danausmc

12-19-2003, 07:59 PM

road damage from mine, detonated by NVA while planting it.

danausmc

12-19-2003, 08:04 PM

I posted these pics is to give you an idea where my head goes when I hear certain songs, certain noises, even smells. Not all the time, but often enought to know I have to stay vigilant and remember that was then and this is now. I have found that I dont live there anymore and if I spend too much time there I get real angry. For those that say the Gospel is just a crutch for weak people, I say so what. I will take that crutch every time until I can stand on my own.
S/F
Waiting on you....
Brothers
Dana

doced

12-20-2003, 09:47 AM

I have tried to find people at the pointman site and chat,but never had any luck.So this is a surprise so to say.I have chronically severe PTSD,and sometimes I can't even go out of the house.So this site will give me a place to vent.I used to go to Church Services regularly and even ushered every week.But for the past 4 months I can no longer attend Services.Do to the need to isolate.

When I was wounded I had a head wound also.And now I have left frontal lobe atropy.So sometimes I get forgetful and have poor concentration.At times it's hard to understand which is bothering me the PTSD or the brain.So you folks will just have to put up with me.hoho

danausmc

12-20-2003, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by doced
I have tried to find people at the pointman site and chat,but never had any luck.So this is a surprise so to say.I have chronically severe PTSD,and sometimes I can't even go out of the house.So this site will give me a place to vent.I used to go to Church Services regularly and even ushered every week.But for the past 4 months I can no longer attend Services.Do to the need to isolate.

When I was wounded I had a head wound also.And now I have left frontal lobe atropy.So sometimes I get forgetful and have poor concentration.At times it's hard to understand which is bothering me the PTSD or the brain.So you folks will just have to put up with me.hoho

I can empathize with you about not being able to hook up on our main site. The forum we had there directed you to a laundry list of porn sites and we shut it down.
Someones mom tried to use it and was shocked to say the least.
So we have really been blessed by Chuck and AJ with this space, and the freedom to do what we do.
I my self used to usher every day and occupy my self with the mechanics of going to church and the minute to minute details, which are important, but not the reason that I was there. I spent so much time in details, I missed the message...
In my continuing dialogue with Sgt. Duffy, I am going to talk about something concerning a "head" injury.
I just need a little time to collect my thoughts. we have promised each other to keep this in open forum, so like I said before, it is like standing naked downtown, and pretending no one can see you.
If you need to e-mail me, or want to chat privately, i'm here most of the time.
Dana

danausmc

12-20-2003, 11:44 AM

Try this link,
www.namvetbook.com and click on the Namvet Book. You can read the entire book on line if you wish. There is a lot of material there that has been very helpful to me. Each chapter is like its own book, so you don't need to start at the beginning.
Dana
braces

Sgt. Duffy-USMC

12-21-2003, 05:24 PM

I think we have something going here in PTSD that could potentially help a lot of us. Especially me.

Thanks for your entries, Dana and Doc. With a subject matter as serious as this one - reponses require more thought on my part. And that is good.

Sorrry I haven't been online for the past few days, but my computer has been in the shop trying to have a scanner added. Scanner is still not connected. Maybe next week.

This is a good plan, Dana. Let's keep it going.

Duffy

danausmc

12-21-2003, 08:25 PM

about computer troubles. Mine stopped for a few hours last night and I could not get it to start. All I got once it would turn on was a message in DOS that said BIOS Block, and that was it.
But sudenly it started working so here I am....
For all those that have been following our chat first from the death thread, and now to here....please...if you have something to add, jump in. The buttons on the bottom of each post will keep you in this thread and your remarks wont get lost somewhere else.
Dana

danausmc

12-21-2003, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by Sgt. Duffy-USMC
I think we have something going here in PTSD that could potentially help a lot of us. Especially me.

Thanks for your entries, Dana and Doc. With a subject matter as serious as this one - reponses require more thought on my part. And that is good.

Sorrry I haven't been online for the past few days, but my computer has been in the shop trying to have a scanner added. Scanner is still not connected. Maybe next week.

This is a good plan, Dana. Let's keep it going.

Duffy

Duffy,
I'm believing that the more we get some of these issues out in the open, the more help we will be to one another, and also anyone else that looks in here. You are definitely right about requiring much prayer and thought about this and collecting ones thoughts about what we have done so far.
I often wonder if I have said too much or too little and if I have become a trigger that did not need to be pulled.
I will think on what and where we are and respond tomorrow.
I do believe we are on to something here and if we proceed slowly, we will get through it.
Dana

doced

12-22-2003, 11:00 AM

As for me your post's never triggered anything.I'm in a constant vigilante state,and anxiety state to.But I have been like this since 1968.So I have already gone through the suicidal thoughts and all that.My condition now is mostly anxiety and maybe a little paranoia.I spent the time when I was in the seige of Khe Sahn,in prayer.Every rocket or shell that came in sounded like it had my name on it.Just wanted to let you know that anything you have said has been nothing but helpful.

Sgt. Duffy-USMC

12-22-2003, 03:14 PM

tHE ABOVE SUBJECT POST CAN BE FOUND IN OPEN CHAPEL.

I have read it - and re-read it - and I expect to do so quite often in the future. CJ has made mention to PTSD, amongst many other powerful subjects and I felt that it would be appropriate to refer those of us in the PTSD forum, to take out a moment of time to read a post that so deeply and sincerily relates to all of us.

I would like to invite USMC26th to jump in here in this forum, since we have, as is explained above, started a project that as agreed upon, shall remain always in the "open".

That does not aliminate private messages in any form - except between Dana and Myself. As noted above, with Dana, I too am available should anyone wish to send private mail.

CJ - I am greatful for your message. The thoughts it provokes are ..... are .... dynamic!

Dufffy

danausmc

12-26-2003, 07:35 PM

and going no where fast in responding to the last posts.
Much of what I have written occurred prior to 1989. The flash backs and nightmares especially. What was interesting about the whole ordeal at the time, was I had been in one church or another since 1973. Said the salvation prayer in 73 and never let go of the Vietnam experience after that. Got so bad the wife went to the Pastor in 89 and said she was leaving. That was a wake up call I heard.
I went to an alter call and prayed specifically about the nightmares and flashbacks. They stopped. Period. I can still find myself in Vietnam, but it is not like before.
But one thing that has slowed down but not stopped is the anger and rage.
Very small things to the average person really set me off and I have to back away real quick, many posts that I read have that effect. (not just on this site)
Does not mean I have something against the person, the words put me in a fight mode and get the old adrenalin pumping.
Another thing that gets me is guys that say their records are sealed and were so covert that the government does not even recognize their service. Secret SEALS is an example. I am not really addressing issues right now, but just talking about where I am.
I do believe each member of the United States Armed Forces has earned a measure of respect and gratitude from all of us.
I guess the "my tour" was worse than yours just exacerbates the problem with reaching each other.
Its sort of like going to a wedding reception and all the different factions sit in their own areas and never communicate. And then pee and moan about each other.
Another thing I really resent and don't like at all is to have anyone tell me what I am thinking.
I would much rather have someone say, is this what you mean instead of telling me what I said. I am ok if someone says that my words mean this or that to them even if that was not my intent and give me a shot at explaining them.
So I am not sure if this is a result of not dealing with the PTSD issues for such a long time and this is just learned responses, or a continuation of actual PTSD symptoms that still need to be dealt with.
What I write is what I mean, but many times as many people that read the words, have as many intrepretations and it aint always pretty.
Enough for now,
Good night Duffy.
Dana

Sgt. Duffy-USMC

12-26-2003, 10:14 PM

Dana, (said in a soft and gentle whisper)

Wheeew! That above post was at the minimum straight to the point....(again said in a soft and gentle whisper). I don't know to whom or what exactly it was directed at but "I interpreted it as a venting of angry emotions" in some form or other. I also can not over look the possibility that there is more to it than even expressed above - but that "is only my interpretation and is more than likely, incorrect". (spoken gently, cautiously, and with a certain amount of body language indicating my own abject fear..."

In other words, I think I will just hide in the corner and wait to see how you feel tomorrow. Wheeew.

Goodnight, Dana
Duffy

ChapMic

12-26-2003, 11:20 PM

Good Lord, are there a lot a Marines on this beach!

Yo, Duffy! Just read one of your postings on another thread and learned that you were at the Pasqua Yaqui Moving Wall. Just getting used to this site -- I'll be sure to visit alk thread in the future. That was a wonderful week for Bill Forte (4th Marines) and I -- very broad base of visitors to the Point Man booth. Vets from both Desert Storm and Afghanistan plus several Korean War vets along with the standard fare of us proud Viet vets. The Tribe treated us like royalty; it made me very proud to be carrying the banner for Point Man! I hope to be visiting Angelfire with my wife and daughter in the Spring. Maybe we can connect then.

And now for you, Dana. What a mind-blower to read your post about mine-sweeping in my old neighborhood -- Hill 37!! I was there as a FO following Operation Meade River in 1968. Can't remember a damned thing though. Maybe you can fill in some blanks. Let's chat some more about this.

On a more somber note, I recommend to you Duffy to use this forum and its collective wisdom to the max with the faith and Words of Jesus "wherever there are 3 gathered in my name." I would suggest dealing with the PTSD issues one at a time -- if at all humanly possible. By example, let's talk about HYPERVIGILENCE for the next week or so and just see what happens. I too used to lump everything together and try to deal with it as a whole which I now understand is the way I always lost my grasp. I am also in the ranks of the "wounded healer" -- certified Gestalt therapist, nurse on mental health unit at local Catholic hospital which only provided me a shield for my PTSD. For years, I hid behind the credentials and academic theology, the Power and the Grace of Jesus was still in the wings. Let's be the band of brothers that we are and lick these near-idolatrous symptoms one at a time, just like we pumped out squat-thrusts.

Mic/7th Marines FO

ChapMic

12-26-2003, 11:39 PM

Doced
I ran a private Foundation for Head Injuries for 5 years. Also experienced a head injury near Hill 37 South of DaNang. Got Med-vac'd out in March of 69. Have total amnesia for the event however. I read my own After Action Reports, and still cannot identify with the events of the day. I completed a 3 Week Intensive program for PTS in December of 2001. The same day I was hit on Hill 37!
Had real good care for the TBI, and still work with Vets with Head Injuries. Rated 100% Permanent and Total by the VA. I am also a VSO. Stay in touch. Pax, Mic

danausmc

12-27-2003, 05:43 AM

Morning Duffy,
Ya got me there, ....whispering....guess that woke me up too...not sure what I was yapping about last night.
Or why. Was not directed at anyone in particular. Guess I was talking out loud and seeing where my thoughts would go.

Mike, hypervigilance? Not a bad Idea. You in for that Duffy? It goes way beyond just looking and watching...I think the anger reactions are part the hypervigilance. A perceived attack is met with overwhelming force. The "attack" can take many forms.....like your kids doing something that may hurt them and you over react. Someone says something negative about your wife and you dont use a measured response, you go right for the throat. Is it the traing you received that when ya get in close, bite off their nose or pull out their throat to get their attention and then kill em?
From hanging around other Marines and their wives, my wife always takes the seat in the corner facing out. She gets real antsy if she has to sit in the middle of a room or with her back to the center.
So I think this is a good direction for now,
Dana

danausmc

12-27-2003, 05:54 AM

Kilo 3/7 was the main infantry unit my company was in support of. They were at Hill 37 and AnHoa. They relieve Mike 3/7 in Dec. 67 and stayed on Hill 37 until about August 68. the two major Operations we (I) participated in were Maui Peak and Mameluke Thrust. After July and a very intense battle in Dodge City, K3/7 moved to Hill 10 and was relieved by 5th Marines. That is about all I remember, about different units.
Some days I cant remember faces or names or anything and I start to think that there is something wrong with me for not remembering the sacrifices made. So I need to look at that too, I guess.
S/F
Dana

doced

12-27-2003, 07:35 AM

I was with 1/26 marines on hill 10 when I was wounded.A Marine squad and myself were on a night ambush.But the command had sent a squad out to the same area the night before.So they were waiting on us,and began throwing grenades all over us,until all but two were wounded.That was operation Mameluke Thrust also.Two weeks later my whole platoon was nearly wiped out,Alpha Co.1/26 was right in the thick of fighting during Mameluke thrust.My guy's are all on panel 3 W in Washington DC.

usmc26th

12-27-2003, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by Danausmc
Morning Duffy,
Ya got me there, ....whispering....guess that woke me up too...not sure what I was yapping about last night.
Or why. Was not directed at anyone in particular. Guess I was talking out loud and seeing where my thoughts would go.

Mike, hypervigilance? Not a bad Idea. You in for that Duffy? It goes way beyond just looking and watching...I think the anger reactions are part the hypervigilance. A perceived attack is met with overwhelming force. The "attack" can take many forms.....like your kids doing something that may hurt them and you over react. Someone says something negative about your wife and you dont use a measured response, you go right for the throat. Is it the traing you received that when ya get in close, bite off their nose or pull out their throat to get their attention and then kill em?
From hanging around other Marines and their wives, my wife always takes the seat in the corner facing out. She gets real antsy if she has to sit in the middle of a room or with her back to the center.
So I think this is a good direction for now,
Dana

Ialso think we should go there, It's a good place to start [my thoughts] I think anger and hypervigilance are together. If you can't relax or get a nights sleep it has a habit of bringing the anger to the surface, or it does with with me. It used to be [back when I was drinking] all it took was for someone to look at me wrong. And I was always watching, sometimes to the point of laying in the woods. I live now where my nearest neibor is over a1/4 mile away, and no triffic, it has helped.
I was allso in the Hill 55 Hill10 area, in late 69 early 7o with the 26th marines, Was also with Hotel 2/7 when the 7th Marines Left the states in May 65.
All for now
USMC26th

danausmc

12-27-2003, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by doced
I was with 1/26 marines on hill 10 when I was wounded.A Marine squad and myself were on a night ambush.But the command had sent a squad out to the same area the night before.So they were waiting on us,and began throwing grenades all over us,until all but two were wounded.That was operation Mameluke Thrust also.Two weeks later my whole platoon was nearly wiped out,Alpha Co.1/26 was right in the thick of fighting during Mameluke thrust.My guy's are all on panel 3 W in Washington DC.

I dont think I was ever at Hill 10, but I remember after Khe Sanh, Marines from 26th Marines moved to AnHoa.
Problem is there are gaps in my memory after all this time and even with dates on pictures with my face in them, I dont remember all of it.
Dana

doced

12-27-2003, 09:31 AM

The Company I was with had road security on pontoon bridges along the road from An Hoa to Wunder Beach.

usmc26th

12-27-2003, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by doced
The Company I was with had road security on pontoon bridges along the road from An Hoa to Wunder Beach.
I was with Delta co frist plt. Was 1st squad leader. Like Dana I can't remenber alot of places or ops. It seem we were always on one. WELCOME HOME and 26th Marines have there own web site. just put down 26th Marines. Its interesting.
usmc26th

danausmc

12-27-2003, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by doced
As for me your post's never triggered anything.I'm in a constant vigilante state,and anxiety state to.But I have been like this since 1968.So I have already gone through the suicidal thoughts and all that.My condition now is mostly anxiety and maybe a little paranoia.I spent the time when I was in the seige of Khe Sahn,in prayer.Every rocket or shell that came in sounded like it had my name on it.Just wanted to let you know that anything you have said has been nothing but helpful.

I was re reading your post, Doc and I was thinking about " I have been like this since 68" and "my condition now is" prompts me to think that many of the folks I have met around the country in the last few years at PTSD conferences, some seem to have settled into a "that is the way it is style" and just put it on the back burner, other guys wear it on their sleeve and that is their whole life...
so what we are taliking about is really complex, but can also be as simple as we want to make it.

danausmc

12-27-2003, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by usmc26th
I was with Delta co frist plt. Was 1st squad leader. Like Dana I can't remenber alot of places or ops. It seem we were always on one. WELCOME HOME and 26th Marines have there own web site. just put down 26th Marines. Its interesting.
usmc26th

I was in Delta, 7th Engineers and was 1st Plt, 1st squad leader when we returned to Hill 37 from AnHoa. Each of our platoons would do a 4 month "tour" in AnHoa. the rest of the time was spent from hill 37. The only reason I know that I was on the two particular operations I mentioned earlier was because I went to the VA once for treatment and they said I had to prove I was a Vietnam Vet. St Louis sent the combat operations page from my record book along with some other stuff. Otherwise I know we heard about these operations and who knew what we were on...we were just there.

danausmc

12-27-2003, 11:46 AM

Do you ever think that hypervigilance now comes from thinking that years ago, you could have been able to change events by being more vigilant?
For years I thought if I was paying more attention to the surroundings, I might have prevented the death of my friend. I must have played the details over and over in my mind for years.
Do you think the anger is from the fact you are so hypervigilant that people around you dont appreciate the fact you are constantly walking point for them and when an event occurs, they just blow it off, and you too?
Walking the roads looking for mines really kept you on your toes. The grunts walked on either side of the road, out in the "bush", and if someone stepped on a mine or a truck was blown up, you thought "is it my lane?" did I miss, is it my fault? How did I get past this and not get killed and this other guy did?
Do you think that feeling that you let someone else down, you are hypervigilant today because you will never let another down again?
Just some thoughts.....

doced

12-27-2003, 11:56 AM

I will look up that website.This must have been a bust Christmas for many people.I always got cards from some of the guy's in Alpha Company.Many I treated for wounds.Some critical wounds to,like paraplegic and full leg amputees.

ChapMic

12-27-2003, 02:46 PM

As the young Catholic boys would say(so as to not swear) Jesus, Mary and Joseph!! What are the chances, that the 4 or 5 of us; who literally came out of the blue to meet at this spot, all served in virtually the same TAOR! I think Angels are following us!
I have a very close friend in Lytle Creek,Ca who was at both Khe Sanh and 26thMarines and my fellow Sgt and Squad Leader with 7th Marines. His name is Bob Boytor. Look for him to chime in with us one day. Another pal Pete Bourret who was on Hill 10 and is a film maker(3 trips back to Nam) was with 81 Mortars on Hills 10-22-55. He lives 5 miles from me, and I was his replacement in June of 68! We met through a local news story about Nam. And then they did a follow up of the improbable chances of us meeting, let alone being raised 5 miles apart and never knowing,for 30 years, that the other one was in the Nam. I feel certain that both will come along for the ride.
It almost seems like this site is just a continuation fo that story.
It looks like we got a hell-of-a "Counrty Club" going here! Do we admit women!!
So, yeah, lets surf with the "Hypervigilance" board. It covers alot of waves. I can begin, tonight or tomorrow, by sharing my SHIELD of Coaching and High School Officiating for 26 years. It was a marvelous experience, yet simultaneously, a way of protecting the "Village" 24//7. It is one thing to be motivated, yet another to be driven. Sound familiar to anyone?
Yo, Doced, I was raised in Dixon, Illinios. Moved to Arizona in 1959. Graduated from a California Seminary School in 1966, and then joined the other Religious Order known as USMC! But my Mid-Western roots still rule.

Sgt. Duffy-USMC

12-28-2003, 06:16 PM

I have read the above entries several times. I definetely think this Forum is a good idea. It must be or I would not be shaking out so many old cobwebs myself.

I have not entered a post within the past few days for two reasons: 1 - It takes a whole lot of thought to put into words thoughts that I have held private for so long. 2 - I am amongst those in our recent rush of members having physical problems so have had to curtail my activities in order to recover from some new developments in my own complicated physical chaos.

Though I have not entered a recent post - a day does not go by that I do not enter and read those post entered by others. At least twice a day. Though my silence is apparent - my feelings and emotions garnered from your entries are there - though not seemingly apparent to you. I'm here.

Thank you & Semper Fi
Duffy

danausmc

12-28-2003, 07:12 PM

Brother Duffey,
Been real sick here my self. Will get back in action in next day or two. Praying for a break through in your condition.
Dana

usmc26th

12-28-2003, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by Danausmc
Brother Duffey,
Been real sick here my self. Will get back in action in next day or two. Praying for a break through in your condition.
Dana

I will also be praying for you Duffy and you to Dana that everything will be alright for both of you!!

usmc26th

12-29-2003, 07:14 AM

Originally posted by Danausmc
Do you ever think that hypervigilance now comes from thinking that years ago, you could have been able to change events by being more vigilant?
For years I thought if I was paying more attention to the surroundings, I might have prevented the death of my friend. I must have played the details over and over in my mind for years.
Do you think the anger is from the fact you are so hypervigilant that people around you dont appreciate the fact you are constantly walking point for them and when an event occurs, they just blow it off, and you too?
Walking the roads looking for mines really kept you on your toes. The grunts walked on either side of the road, out in the "bush", and if someone stepped on a mine or a truck was blown up, you thought "is it my lane?" did I miss, is it my fault? How did I get past this and not get killed and this other guy did?
Do you think that feeling that you let someone else down, you are hypervigilant today because you will never let another down again?
Just some thoughts.....

Made me think about this one, You mite be right on. I for one will try to take on all my friends problems and get deal with them, which means I'm still walking point. Sometimes for the world. If I do this for a long peroid of time the anger is back to the suface again. Just my thoughts on this.

danausmc

12-29-2003, 08:49 PM

This is a reply for this thread but based on some thoughts that I have had from the death thread....
in that thread you wrote

"As in the case of our youth, even as combat personnel, until we come close to Death - our youth provides us with a built in form of emotional "immortality". It may happen to others, but "never to me.".

As a reult of your last post above, we moved our conversation into the PTSD forum... did we not? In the PTSD forum we will be dealing "directly" with the very subject that we had tried to avoid here in this forum. DEATH AND ITS RAMIFICATIONS - AND NEGATIVE SIDE AFFECTS. "

What is the real reason PTSD even occurs?
Is it because of our own perceptions and fear of death?
Is it because of our own need for self preservation?
Or...
Death itself?
The fear of death?
Someone elses death?
Our guilt over the death of another?
Our inablity to prevent a death?
Our helplessness when it comes?
the fact it is preordained before the beginning of time?

Or even as you said, Did I fail them?
How many are on the wall that did not receive the teaching?
GUILT?

On that, do you have children? The first time they get on the school bus you wonder if you taught them enought to survie....the first time they pull out of the driveway in the car alone...you think did I tech them enough? what if they dont make it? did I fail? that is what you have asked in one post. Did I fail? No you did not. My training kept me alive more than once. Death comes from a lot more than lack of training. No amount of training can prevent death by an overwhelming force, or your inability to be in complete control. And also that would put you at the same level as God, and then what would you need him for?

Hypervigilance....is it because we are so afraid to face death,, that we are looking for the angel of death? What will we do if he shows up? Instead of looking for and embracing Jesus Christ? Somehow we can make things right at that last breath? What if you don't get one?

I wrote this once and it did not post so I am trying again...maybe it is on some other site by mistake. that should get some tongues wagging.

My peace is in Jesus Christ....the more stuff I lay off on HIM and quit clinging too....the easier life is.
Dana

ChapMic

12-30-2003, 12:24 AM

In a nutshell you all described why I was a Coach for 26 years! No one ever left my "Flock" untrained! No one was ever without care and vigilance. Jesus called it AGAPE. Mic

danausmc

12-30-2003, 09:11 PM

a couple of edits in my previous post. Mostly spelling errors, but one extra thought also. I had written it once and somehow it did not post and when I came back to it, I could not remember all that I had written.

Tomorrow night Susan and I will be attending and participating in a wedding ceremony of a man and woman we met through the Ministry.

I guess this is the flip side of what we have been talking about. LIFE. We met in jail. PTSD had a real grip on his life, and responses to it put him in prison. I am proud to call him a friend. But things can turn around. That is why we have hope. Jesus is who he said He is.
Another life turned around by a relationship with Jesus.

Carpe diem....seize the day......the only one who knows how many we have left is God himself. This is a choice we have to make every day. it is our choice what our out look will be and how we get hold of what God has given us.

Is PTSD a prison that we lock ourselves into? Why is it so hard to step away from the emotions and other feelings?

Can you do it? And still honor the memory of those you cherish? Can you remember their names? Seems like a silly question. But I will leave it here for now....

ChapMic

12-31-2003, 12:02 AM

My wife,and children and I are hosting 4 PTSD Vets at our 'Get-A-Way" house in Mexico for the New Year. God love ya all. And may God Speed for you in the New Year. SEYA again about January 10th. Mike and Lydia/ Tucson Outpost

danausmc

12-31-2003, 09:01 PM

All I could imagine was coming back to the world...and buying a Corvette. Saved everything I got paid. Could not wait. Kept my eyes fixed on that goal. But you know what? Got home and it was like being in a foreign land. I did not know anyone. Just hung out. Lost. Not the same any longer. tried a lot of things and "it" just was not there. Did not know what it was....but I sure kept a keen eye out for it... like so many other vets....just began to drift and wander spiritually and never find that home I left.
But something struck me in a familiar scripture to night and it is the following....

"I will come to you and fulfill my gracious promise to bring you back to this place. For I know the plans I have for you", declares the Lord,"plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you", declares the Lord,"and will bring you back from captivity."

God himself has promised to rescue us from the captivity we are in and bound by PTSD.

He even explains what to do in his Word.

danausmc

01-01-2004, 04:41 PM

I never bought the Corvette either......

danausmc

01-01-2004, 04:50 PM

The world's an orphans home. Shall
we never have peace without sorrow?
without pleas of the dying for
help that won't come? O
quiet form upon the dust, I cannot
look and yet I must. If these great patient
dyings--all these agonies
and wound bearings and bloodshed--
can teach us how to live, these
dyings were not wasted.

I,m submitting this to the PTSD discussion....without comment from me.
This was written in 1944

Sgt. Duffy-USMC

01-01-2004, 08:44 PM

I left the Marine Corps at the Marine Corps Air Station - El Toro, Santa Anna.

I had spent my previous time in the jungles of Okinawa and Southeast Asia. I was there where the "old Corps" was on the original battle of Okinawa. I lived in the jungle. Counter Guerrilla Warfare Instruction School, NTA, NORTH OR CAMP SCWAB.

In 1962-1963 13,000 Military troops were sent to Nam as Military Advisors.

I was Headquartered with Dvision Schools at Camp Hansen, Okinawa, outside of Kin Village. The Team never saw Camp Hansen, even though I had a bunk and locker there. We flew into Camp Hansen via Huey and picked up our monthly checks and blew them in Kin Village, Ishikawa Beach, Four Corners and Naha. We always arrived back in Skoshi cabs drunk and hung over.

The choppers would take us back up North and we would start again, with a new company, a new group of men, and for youngsters like me, just another day in the jungle. Classes in tent camps... night patrols... compass orientation... fake fire fights. Nothing to it.

In 1962 the Cuban Missile Crisis began. We were First Alert. The School was shut down, we were air evact and we drank a lot of Tories whiskey and saki. We were flown to Kadena Air Force Base. Carrying the best we had to offer the enemy, armed with the best knowledge... we departed.

danausmc

01-02-2004, 06:10 PM

a few days ago I sent Sgt Duffy an e-mail by regular non PMIM PM and enquired about his health.
I deleted it afterward and dont remember all the details, but he pointed out that I promised not to send any private e-mails.
Well ya got me Duffy.
I cant post it because I dont have it. I was worried that you had taken a serious turn and was concerned.
So now Im waiting.....

danausmc

01-02-2004, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by Sgt. Duffy-USMC
I left the Marine Corps at the Marine Corps Air Station - El Toro, Santa Anna.

I had spent my previous time in the jungles of Okinawa and Southeast Asia. I was there where the "old Corps" was on the original battle of Okinawa. I lived in the jungle. Counter Guerrilla Warfare Instruction School, NTA, NORTH OR CAMP SCWAB.

In 1962-1963 13,000 Military troops were sent to Nam as Military Advisors.

I was Headquartered with Dvision Schools at Camp Hansen, Okinawa, outside of Kin Village. The Team never saw Camp Hansen, even though I had a bunk and locker there. We flew into Camp Hansen via Huey and picked up our monthly checks and blew them in Kin Village, Ishikawa Beach, Four Corners and Naha. We always arrived back in Skoshi cabs drunk and hung over.

The choppers would take us back up North and we would start again, with a new company, a new group of men, and for youngsters like me, just another day in the jungle. Classes in tent camps... night patrols... compass orientation... fake fire fights. Nothing to it.

In 1962 the Cuban Missile Crisis began. We were First Alert. The School was shut down, we were air evact and we drank a lot of Tories whiskey and saki. We were flown to Kadena Air Force Base. Carrying the best we had to offer the enemy, armed with the best knowledge... we departed.

One of the members of my group was in 9th Marines in 62-63 on Okinowa. Went to RVN in 63 and was medivaced out after a midair helicoptor crash on 10 OCT 63. You may also have trained this guy, Sgt Duffey.
The point I was trying to make earlier is this, you have no control over their use of your training and even with the best, the situation was out of their control when ten Marines lost their lives that day. Two are still listed as missing. You are not accountable for this.

danausmc

01-03-2004, 02:36 PM

a really nice link. Takes a little time to load but is worth the wait.

http://www.palletmastersworkshop.com/namflash.html

Sgt. Duffy-USMC

01-07-2004, 06:51 PM

Perhaps, she was not there. Perhaps, she can't possibly visualize. Perhaps.... she only tries... perhaps... she needs your strength.... perhaps she needs you to share with her... that which she does not understand... perhaps... no-one will ever understand us... perhaps... you and I need to regain the strength that we had... so long ago. Welcome Home, Brother.

Sgt. Duffy-USMC

01-07-2004, 06:59 PM

CAN YOU HEAR ME, BROTHER?

"Let us form one body, one heart, and defend to the last warrior our country, our homes, our liberty, and the graves of our fathers."

Tecumseh
Shawnee - 1808

Chuck

01-07-2004, 10:53 PM

usmc26th..

I would like to give you a personal invite to come join us at a Marines Only forum.

http://www.MarineChat.com/
Please stop by and register. If you use the same user name as here I will be looking for you.. and will code you to the private forum entiled "The Select Few"
There you will Find Sgt Duffy, Dana, AJ, and a lot more Marines. I think you then find the home you are looking for.

It is squad bay talk.. by Marines for Marines.. those that have been there and done that... many many Vietnam Vets.

Dean Black

01-08-2004, 06:08 PM

Hey guys and ladies, I have read your threads on PTSD & PTSD issues, and each time I read I discover something new. And I think Dana Morgan and all who helped make this website available have done us a service. Being a S.O.G,173d, & 82nd ABN Vet, I don't nomally heap praise on Maureens. Spill your guts, that's what I was told. Well, not in those exact words, but the forum is set up to express our thoughts. The only way you get a grip on Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is to get it out in the open and deal with it. Trade thoughts and ideas until you have what you are seeking. don't worry about space, get it off your chest. If you feel I am wrong, set me straight, the Lord knows I need all the help I can get. But one thing's for sure, I will go to the end of the line and wait my turn, if I don't have time to read all of the post's, I have no business being here. God Bless.
Dean

danausmc

01-09-2004, 08:01 PM

To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the market places and calling out to others:
"We played the flute for you and you did not dance;
We sang a dirge for you and you did not mourn.

For John came neither eating or drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' The Son of Man came eating and drinking and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." '

BUT WISDOM IS PROVED RIGHT BY HER ACTIONS."

danausmc

01-09-2004, 09:28 PM

Something has happened here. I have removed one post and one entire thread that I have received several complaints about.

One thing that is not my intent, is to provoke firefights and any other name calling or stepping on others to promote some agenda or point of view. Open forums such as this will attract all kinds of attitudes and opinions and just because some one or some opinion does not go along with your preconceived agenda or notion of how things should be does not necessarily make the othe person wrong.

So if you have a complaint about any POSTS, there is a line here that says "report this post". Click it, You will be directed to a form that asks you to explain your complaint and a moderator or administrator will deal with it from there.

This forum is also not for soliciting money or donations for any cause. Period. That means no private e-mail looking for finances.

The sad thing about Ministry is too many have another agenda aside from the preaching of the gospel.

This forum is for PTSD issues only.

Each thread has its own topic that is being discussed.

Discussion is the key to forums in general.

I see a lot of looking and no participation.

No one is a mindreader in this thread, so if you got something to say, say it. Even if you think your statement might not be important, it will mean something important to someone.

I will not close the thread. It needs to remain open to all for now, so any Vet can come in. Closed threads may come along sooner or later, but we have not made that choice yet.

Duffy and I have been very open about our thoughts and everything else that goes along with the topic.

If you dont want to take part in this conversation, all you got to do is hit new thread and you can start your own.

If you want to stay in this thread with me and Duffy, you have to hit REPLY to this thread.

Simple. If I can do it so can you. There are other Vets with PTSD issues besides Vietnam Vets. ALL VETERANS are WELCOME here.

And LAST but not Least, everyone with a PTSD issue has their own story. EVERYONE.
That means each person with an issue, does not need some other person taking shots at them because their event is more traumatic.
The Bible says God will not let you have any more than you can withstand....

So peace to all of you. I am not angry about any recent posts and have taken them all to heart.
My personal advice to all of us, is start looking for what is right and good and not worry so much about how wrong the other guy is. The Bible also says you have to stand before God and give an accounting for every word and deed that YOU did, not answer for any others.

Dana

danausmc

01-10-2004, 09:30 PM

Sgt Duffy,
Good to see you around. How are ya doing tonight?
I made a couple changes here to the PTSD forum by moving the Death thread here. Im not done yet but this is a start.
Im ready when you are.
Dana

ChapMic

01-11-2004, 12:05 AM

We are back from a great retreat at the Sea of Cortez. So if you think you are enlightened, try hangin' with 5 PTS 100 percenters!
You will soon discover how evolved you are Or NOT! In truth we all had a light and spirit filled experience. Lots of honest talk, and lots of praying for our PTS pals around the world.
I highly recommend a couple of the tapes we listened to as a group. Stuart Wilde is quite good. And a series callled the "Four Agreements" by Dr. Miguel Ruiz narrated by Peter Coyote. Combined they provided a wonderful format for a our daily discussions. We hope to conduct more Retreats with some of the same dudes and a few new ones each time. If you are ever in Arizona please do contact me.
Out of curiosity, how many of the participants in this PTSD thread have had treatment and or counseling' for PTSD? How many of you participate in an ongoing Group? (every Wednesday for me). And how many have been through In-Patient programs?
(I did a 3 week program in 2001).
The following is a guideline we are following for the first 3 months of the New Year.
SPECIFIC GOALS AND BEHAVIORS

BEHAVIORS TO DECREASE
1. Interpersonal Chaos
2. Labile emotions and moods
3. Impulsiveness
4. Confusion about Self/Cognitive dysregulation

BEHAVIORS TO INCEASE

1. Interpersonal effectivenes skills
2. Emotion regulation skills
3. Distress tolerance skills
4. Core mindfullnes skills/ Prayer for Me

There are 11 of us working on this stuff together,which makes for a real broad experience rating when we report to each other.

Yet I can testify to the living fact that everyone of the skills mentioned in the above list are the same things the Apostles wrestled with and rest assured there is a Parable for any and all emotions we may stumble upon. So the beauty of the PMIM Chat is that we get to talk;while Jesus listens in. If we are listening of course!

usmc26th

01-11-2004, 07:48 AM

In answer to your question , I have in the past 18years been in and out of treatment, Have spent about 8 mo's in hospital treatment, For a number of years have worked with vets on drugs and brooze. and whatever may come along. Infact have done this since 86. give or take a couple of yr's.

Phantomblooper

01-11-2004, 08:35 AM

Hi, my name is Chuck Hall. I am retired from the Marine Corps with disabilities to include PTSD. I enlisted in 1973 never went to RVN. In 1983 I went to Beirut,Lebanon. I was involved in fire fights and witnessed the devasting tragedy of the bombing of the BLT 1/8 headquarters barracks on Sunday October 23rd 1983. I have been involved with a PTSD group in Jacksonville,NC consisting primarly of Vietnam vets,Korean vets,Vietnam/Gulf war vets,and myself. Dana Morgan invited me from another site to use this forum. I have had in-patient treatment for PTSD at Salisbury,NC VAMC for 11 weeks. I was medically discharged from the Marines out of Walter Reed Army Hospital & Bethesda Naval Hopsital, I spent four months in between those hospitals prior to retirement. They originally thought that I had a Schizophrenia disorder.Then a doctor that I had had the insight enough at that time to diagnose PTSD as the disability,because all the tests for other diagnoses came back unfounded.The group that I attend here in NC,I have got along great with all the vets that attend,bi-monthly. I would post on this forum when I feel that I have something that is useful to say. Thanks Dana,for the welcome aboard. I will now throw this out for discussion and see what insight you can give me. I posted this on other site on Christmas day and had great response,but I would like to get a response from a primarily PTSD thread. Semper-Fi!! "Never Forget" Chuck Hall Closure

I’ve heard of something called closure

And I have heard of people seeking closure

I have put some thought to this “closure” and what it is to me...

~

What is closure and why do some seek it?

Will closure lessen the memories and the pain?

Does closure right the wrongs?

Is closure when they are no longer a presence in our hearts and minds?

Is closure when they no longer visit your resting place or memorials?

Is closure when they no longer remember you or what you did?

Is closure the Holy Grail?

~

Closure for some is when you have received your last rights

Closure for some is when they read your obituary in the paper

Closure for some is when they have thrown the last handful of dirt on your casket and everyone walks away

Closure for some is when they have scattered your ashes to the winds & seas

Closure for some is when they have set your tombstone

Closure for some is when they have moved on and get on with their lives without you

~

For those Marines, Sailors & Soldiers that sacrificed and were killed in Beirut, Lebanon

Those that were my Brothers – in – arms, my leaders, my mentors, my comrades, my friends...

I do not seek closure, nor do I want closure for them or me...

I want them, their sacrifices, their honor and their memories forever and always to be remembered and honored...

For they deserve more than closure... they deserve to be honored and remembered for eternity.

Twenty Christmas’s later I am not willing to close on this chapter of my life. Twenty Christmas’s later my lost brothers and their families are not as fortunate as mine. I celebrate this day with my family because of the “Reason for the Season” and this is the correct thing to do. But always in my mind I also celebrate for my brothers that could not be with their families. On this Christmas present I am always visited by the ghosts of Christmas past. After this lease on life is over, I pray that closure may come when I am visited one day by the ghost of future Christmas’s, and not by the ghost of the many Christmas's past.

danausmc

01-11-2004, 07:58 PM

Chuck,
I believe in my heart that closure should be called something else entirely...
the different meanings you have listed are surely profound.....
but more important is what you say about not wanting closure....and the reasons
closure should be called perspective
closure should be called commitment
closure should be called sacrifice
closure should be called honor
closure should be called rememberance
for every reason for closure , there is a reason for not.

Not to forget.
Not to quit.
Not to give up.
Not to get swallowed up in self pity .

But we Honor our Brothers by how we conduct ourselves today and we must never forget...they live as long as we remember.

We are here and they are not. That is why this forum is here...to be a safe place to come and just be yourself.
To talk. To share. To Honor the sacrifice of our Brothers.

Thanks for posting.
Semper Fi, Chuck
Dana

ChapMic

01-12-2004, 12:56 AM

The only one of those thoughtful questions I can respond to is the lessening of the pain and the memories. I would not call 'closure' a time bound thought. It is more of an achievement of the transcending of the thought and the memories. Like finding a place outside of the thoughts(intrusive ones) where our freedom of choice is restored. When you think about it we cannot even "conceptualize' anything without a "point' outside our immediate thinking. For some reason we elect not to reside at that 'spot' other than to recall the past as it comes to us.
Closure to me is to set up camp at that 'safe haven" outside the stream of memories and not allow them to have the oars.
We are not a happening. we are happening. At the moment we are aware and can describe what we are, we are not that at all. We are in transit; a point in a continuum, and awareness is at best capable only of immediate hindsight. To describe with awareness and seeming clarity what we are, is at best just a description of what we just were. And for combat Vet's our "WERENESS" seems to overide most all present realities. The experience of awarness is not precisely the same as the experience itself. Experience has no awareness. It is followed by awareness. And since we were NUMBED to awareness. we now seek 'closure' between our current new found awareness of the effects of PTS, and our old experience. Knowing EXACTLY what happened to us WHEN it happened and how that experience created a life script for us. physiologically, psychologically. and spiritually,and then living with that awareness. is closing the gap between an unconsciously driven life and one of being able live in the Spirit filled present. When the gap is closed. I call that 'Closure". A state of no anxiety about past or future.
A little convoluted, but my best shot. S/F Mic

ChapMic

01-12-2004, 01:10 AM

Hope is a memory of the Future. Exactly what our deceased brothers would want us to HAVE and BE; "hopeful", for a "peace that surpasses all understanding" . That is a brand of closure too, as true peace and contentment is a 'thoughtless" state.
Understanding is the booby prize! Closure is past "understanding". S/F Mic

danausmc

01-13-2004, 07:24 PM

I noticed a complaint in another forum about the lack of responses to posts. Forums and threads are designed to promote a continuity of thought. If you want to respond to a thought you see, dont start a new thread. Please hit reply. At least everyone will know where you are. There are 83 registered members in this forum right now and maybe ten have actually posted in this thread, but over 800 have looked.

Remember this is not to push each others buttons and provoke or exacerbate problems, but to seek common ground and help each other out.

There are no cliques here.

Duffy, glad to see you up and on tonight. Are you well enough to post?

I am gone at least 15 hours a day to work. I may not respond for a day or two, and othertimes I can respond right away. If you need to reach me, send me a regular e-mail.

I will look before I go to work.

Dana

danausmc

01-13-2004, 07:32 PM

Maybe we should be looking at anger and our responses to each other.....as a result of our PTSD

Instead of any other PTSD issue. I have received many angry e-mails about this and that and they are private. But one common thread is they are all angry responses.... why dont we take a looka t the reasons we respond that way and then go from ther?

Lou, Duffy, (when he is able) Chap Mic, Dean, Doced and Phantom are the regular posters in this thread. What do you guys think about that?

Please encourage some of the others to join in.

Thanks

Phantomblooper

01-14-2004, 06:46 PM

Thank you all for your responses to me for my above posting. They have gave me a different perspective and insight. I do want closure,I seek it everyday. I go to bed thinking about my expeirences and I wake up thinking of my time served.Yes one of my problems are the intrusive thoughts. Some that may visit other Marine sites may know that I have been active in the past two years trying to get a postage stamp to honor my fallen comrades and the peacekeepers from 1982-1984. Prior to this I only went to the Beirut memorial "The Other Wall" here in NC three times since its dedication in 1984,just within the past five years. Most weeks I drive past it at least two or three times a week. This battle with Washington,DC and the USPS has had my PTSD symptoms out of whack for approximately two years. I do have support and deal with the issues as they arise without the outbursts ect. However, I chose to take on this cause and I knew the consequences when I started it. I stated about going through an inpatient program at the VA hospital here in NC. I have been offered the chance to go back for a tune up, if you will, but as of now I am leaving those options open,and using the local resources that I have available. I have been asked during this ongoing initiative when was the last time you were in Beirut? My answer was: Today.... My writing on Clousure is my thoughts,my therapy,my outlet. I know deep down that I honestly do seek closure,but I again throw this out for comment. Like a closet door,when you close it do you forget what is behind it? This is a part of my life that I can not just put into the closet and forget about. I want to forget...but as of now the thoughts are keeping me here. I hope that this makes sense in the last few sentences. I appreciate you letting me share. God Bless! Semper-Fi!! "Never Forget" Chuck Hall

ChapMic

01-15-2004, 07:17 AM

I agree with you Dana about the Anger topic. Anger is often the "lid' on other emotions, and this can be a safe place to take the lid off and see what is there? These postings are also a good 'free associating' method that allow us to get closer to the core feeling. Anger is just the directional sign. We are all each others Road Guards. Mic

Sgt. Duffy-USMC

01-15-2004, 06:20 PM

HOG WASH!

Ask any psychologist - or Drill Instructor - or Commanding Officer - or Law Enforcement Officer - or Trained Counselor. Anger is the strongest-greatest-most powerful motivator of all motivations!

Do you think I struggled and lived and survived what I have because I loved my mom's apple pie? Do you think I did it so that I could get back home in time for Christmas sleigh bell rides to my grandma's house? Do you think I did it because I believed in the cause so blatantly thrown in my face by the American Public? Do you think I did it because I have a Marine Corps tattoo on my right arm and teeth marks on my left arm? Do you think I did it out of "love" for the men who died in my arms? Do you think I did it because "the Lord told me too'? Do you think I went where men should not go because I had a calling from my country? I went....Sir.....because my C.O. MAJOR RICHARD B. TWOHEY....said go.....go....go...go. And I went to get even! I went for revenge! I went to slaughter! I went because I was madder than hell!

There is no place in war for peace-mongers! There is no such word as gentle in war! I saw no God in that jungle! None! Not ours - not their's - not anyone's......! There were no Chaplains, no Rabbi's, no priests, no ministers - on any patrol I was on...ever! Where were they?..... in the rear with the gear... where else? If I had entertained any thought but anger - I would have thrown my damned rifle into the mud and walked and swam home. Anger? Tell me all about it.....Sir!

usmc26th

01-15-2004, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by Phantomblooper
Thank you all for your responses to me for my above posting. They have gave me a different perspective and insight. I do want closure,I seek it everyday. I go to bed thinking about my expeirences and I wake up thinking of my time served.Yes one of my problems are the intrusive thoughts. Some that may visit other Marine sites may know that I have been active in the past two years trying to get a postage stamp to honor my fallen comrades and the peacekeepers from 1982-1984. Prior to this I only went to the Beirut memorial "The Other Wall" here in NC three times since its dedication in 1984,just within the past five years. Most weeks I drive past it at least two or three times a week. This battle with Washington,DC and the USPS has had my PTSD symptoms out of whack for approximately two years. I do have support and deal with the issues as they arise without the outbursts ect. However, I chose to take on this cause and I knew the consequences when I started it. I stated about going through an inpatient program at the VA hospital here in NC. I have been offered the chance to go back for a tune up, if you will, but as of now I am leaving those options open,and using the local resources that I have available. I have been asked during this ongoing initiative when was the last time you were in Beirut? My answer was: Today.... My writing on Clousure is my thoughts,my therapy,my outlet. I know deep down that I honestly do seek closure,but I again throw this out for comment. Like a closet door,when you close it do you forget what is behind it? This is a part of my life that I can not just put into the closet and forget about. I want to forget...but as of now the thoughts are keeping me here. I hope that this makes sense in the last few sentences. I appreciate you letting me share. God Bless! Semper-Fi!! "Never Forget" Chuck Hall

You have asked for responses to this and I have been thinking about what you've said in this and your post previous to this.

Closure: We all want closure but do any of us really attain closure? Or do we merely attain an ability to cope with where we've been, what we've seen, what we've done? Simply put, do we become masters of survival with what feels like a closed vision of our experiences?

We all want closure but first we have to take certain steps toward that goal. Those steps coming before we can make a fully activated committment to anything. Usually , none of us wants to do that in that order or admit we still have sacks of trash on our backs we haven't dealt with yet. Doing something morally and physically worthwhile such as your battle over the stamp helps us to feel worthy of still being a part of something greater, of being alive, a part of living, of people, of the world. To care about something so strongly as to be angry is not unusual at all. We need our battles. I know I do and believe me, I have mine. Semper Fi!

But wait, first....I had to accept certain things and deal with them. I deal with stuff every day within myself. Its a part of waking up in the morning. Then and only then, I fight my battles. I have tried it the other way most of my life since my return from Nam. Battle first, deal with the PTSD and everthing it is, later. I can tell you truthfully that it doesn't work that way.

I have done my time...in jail(when I was drinking and drugging), haven't done that for a long time now, in the PTSD ward at the V.A. and the various PTSD programs, Counselos, Psychologists, peer counselors, friends, guys in was in Nam with, rap groups, ALL OF IT and I learned I had to let my battles go until Idealt with myself. (At least I do most of the time..I don't walk on water.)

My view? You need to go to your PTSD groups or whatever works for you. Leave your stamp battle alone and rest a little. Don't forget it totally, just walk away from it a little and deal with you first. Then go back to your battle refreshed and uncluttered.

In otherwards. BACK UP
RE-GROUP
LOOK IT OVER
RE-EVALUATE
PLAN
ACT

The Marines don't like the idea of backing up from anything but sometimes we need to see things from a different angle. If we don't...we end up in trouble and accomplish ZIP !!

God Bless...Lou Jensen ( some call me Butch)

usmc26th

01-15-2004, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by Sgt. Duffy-USMC
HOG WASH!

Ask any psychologist - or Drill Instructor - or Commanding Officer - or Law Enforcement Officer - or Trained Counselor. Anger is the strongest-greatest-most powerful motivator of all motivations!

Do you think I struggled and lived and survived what I have because I loved my mom's apple pie? Do you think I did it so that I could get back home in time for Christmas sleigh bell rides to my grandma's house? Do you think I did it because I believed in the cause so blatantly thrown in my face by the American Public? Do you think I did it because I have a Marine Corps tattoo on my right arm and teeth marks on my left arm? Do you think I did it out of "love" for the men who died in my arms? Do you think I did it because "the Lord told me too'? Do you think I went where men should not go because I had a calling from my country? I went....Sir.....because my C.O. MAJOR RICHARD B. TWOHEY....said go.....go....go...go. And I went to get even! I went for revenge! I went to slaughter! I went because I was madder than hell!

There is no place in war for peace-mongers! There is no such word as gentle in war! I saw no God in that jungle! None! Not ours - not their's - not anyone's......! There were no Chaplains, no Rabbi's, no priests, no ministers - on any patrol I was on...ever! Where were they?..... in the rear with the gear... where else? If I had entertained any thought but anger - I would have thrown my damned rifle into the mud and walked and swam home. Anger? Tell me all about it.....Sir!

My Marine mentality forces me to come in on this one and make a remark Duffy,

God got angry many times in the Bible so anger has been there forever. Anger has served two purposes in my life. It either gets me in trouble or out of trouble. So all I can say is SEMPER FI! My feelings excately. Carry on...Marine!

danausmc

01-15-2004, 07:46 PM

Anger is a hot topic.
My first reasons for this choice was I was having some real issues and chose to to respond in my usual way, but to wait and see and wait some more, something I have learned from Duffy in the short time that we have "known" each other. Some posts ago he said it takes him many looks and much time to respond to a post. Well, I took that to my responses to issues and tried it here.
Gee...it worked for me...Thanks Sgt. Duffy...

But what I want to say and will do it in different posts is this...
Butch posted ths comment earlier...
"
Made me think about this one, You mite be right on. I for one will try to take on all my friends problems and get deal with them, which means I'm still walking point. Sometimes for the world. If I do this for a long peroid of time the anger is back to the suface again. Just my thoughts on this."

the part ..."the anger is back to the surface again" ...struck a cord with me.

Why?? WHY?? and Why now and not later or sooner, what triggered it off?

Im angry about something all the time and I don't usually even know why.

So my question was not for anyone in particular , but is for me as well as anyone.

danausmc

01-15-2004, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by ChapMic
I agree with you Dana about the Anger topic. Anger is often the "lid' on other emotions, and this can be a safe place to take the lid off and see what is there? These postings are also a good 'free associating' method that allow us to get closer to the core feeling. Anger is just the directional sign. We are all each others Road Guards. Mic

I can see where you are coming from if you mean anger , today, in the present, to cover up all the other stuff that is happening ....but if this is true as you say and the lid comes off....does that mean the anger will automatically come to the surface as some defense mechanism?
Don't know but that is how I perceive this post.

Otherwise, I believe as Duffy and Butch have said, anger is the most effective motivator there ever was.
How often was God provoked to anger in the Scriptures?

How often was some character in Scripture provoked and did something stupid in response?

How did you get through Bootcamp?

You were angry.

You were going to show that S.O.B. that you could make it and you were no S***Bird. You were angry.

You got through Vietnam because you were angry for a myriad of reasons.

Probably the biggest for me was the deaths of Marine Brothers....and for what?
See, still angry.

And as Duffy says, I did not see God there. I looked and when the guy who prayed all the time for us and witnessed all the time with out being a Bible thumper or obnoxious, got killed in a particularly gruesome manner, I was sure God did not even exist. Period.

So I am probably rambling here, so bear with me.

I never saw a Chaplain, except for the times one would come out for a service for the KIA members of our company. I do know for a fact that our Pointman Chaplain spent his entire second tour with the 11th Armored Cavalry in the bush and went into Cambodia, in 1970(?).

A Chaplain showed up the second Christmas I was there. I have a story about that but it still makes me angry...I will share it another time.

So anger.....sure motivates me in a negative way.
I wanted to talk about why? and what is doing it after all this time?

usmc26th

01-15-2004, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by Danausmc
I can see where you are coming from if you mean anger , today, in the present, to cover up all the other stuff that is happening ....but if this is true as you say and the lid comes off....does that mean the anger will automatically come to the surface as some defense mechanism?
Don't know but that is how I perceive this post.

Otherwise, I believe as Duffy and Butch have said, anger is the most effective motivator there ever was.
How often was God provoked to anger in the Scriptures?

How often was some character in Scripture provoked and did something stupid in response?

How did you get through Bootcamp?

You were angry.

You were going to show that S.O.B. that you could make it and you were no S***Bird. You were angry.

You got through Vietnam because you were angry for a myriad of reasons.

Probably the biggest for me was the deaths of Marine Brothers....and for what?
See, still angry.

And as Duffy says, I did not see God there. I looked and when the guy who prayed all the time for us and witnessed all the time with out being a Bible thumper or obnoxious, got killed in a particularly gruesome manner, I was sure God did not even exist. Period.

So I am probably rambling here, so bear with me.

I never saw a Chaplain, except for the times one would come out for a service for the KIA members of our company. I do know for a fact that our Pointman Chaplain spent his entire second tour with the 11th Armored Cavalry in the bush and went into Cambodia, in 1970(?).

A Chaplain showed up the second Christmas I was there. I have a story about that but it still makes me angry...I will share it another time.

So anger.....sure motivates me in a negative way.
I wanted to talk about why? and what is doing it after all this time?

Dana;
Myanger is never far from the top of the jar, (as you know and others that know me will tell you) the thing that helps me the most is not to let things pile-up. But sometimes in your position it's hard to do. And at times we get ambushed and its right there again , the only problem is I don't know the answer, except prayer. But you know that. One thing at a time helps also.

danausmc

01-15-2004, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by usmc26th
Dana;
Myanger is never far from the top of the jar, (as you know and others that know me will tell you) the thing that helps me the most is not to let things pile-up. But sometimes in your position it's hard to do. And at times we get ambushed and its right there again , the only problem is I don't know the answer, except prayer. But you know that. One thing at a time helps also.

Odd feeling that I just use anger now to hide something else, but I dont know what it is, because I know or should know better...
One thing at a time is real sound advice.
Thanks

pointmanben

01-16-2004, 11:43 AM

I'm not going to share the whole history of my personal anger management but just this one thing that happened almost 50 years ago. To keep from having chapped lips while surveying in the winter up here, I was advised by "helpful" fellow employee that if I took a chaw of "Peachy Scrap" tobacco it would prevent chapping. I tried it. At that time in my life I also had a very quick temper and one of the first things that happens when you loose your temper is that you swallow. Then you Puke! I didn't like it. About then I started to learn to control my temper a little better and quit chewing at that time. O.K. that might not be the best example of anger management but think about it.
When something is eating on you and your anger gets the best of you, whether you react physically or vocally the results will be sickening. You never know but the person you are angry at may be the one your life depends on.
I still get very irritated when stupid people do stupid things, and that includes the person I see in the mirror and I'll admit it.
Your right! It's best to give the problem to God right away, and quit chewing on it before it gets you sick.
That's worse than any sea-sickness I've experienced.
Ben

Dean Black

01-16-2004, 02:46 PM

:skismile: I don't know that I can add any wisdom to the group but I am one who can attest to the misery anger can bring. I have always had a bad temper, and you are all right ; anger will motivate you. When I returned to civilian life and got a taste of how the Veteran was being treated by the American Public, my attitude went from bad to worse. I had one marriage destroyed and my present marriage has suffered too. My anger would go from anger to blind rage quickly. I accepted the Lord Jan 2, 1997 and slowly the healing process started. I came into Point Man Sept 1998. In Nov 1998 I went to Charlotte, NC Vet Center and I asked the Director if I could come in and sit in the lobby and meet Vet's. Loretta Deaton is the Director, and we go back about 14 years; had another idea. Since I was an Out Post leader with PMIM, I should go through all three phases of Counseling, that way I could meet all the Veterans comiing to the Vet Center. Since I had never completed anything and I agreed. I have learned a lot but I know that the anger is still under the surface and I have to lean on Jesus Christ to help me every day of my life. To the public we are abnormal, to us they are abnormal. And without God we live in the twi -light zone.
Dean

pointmanben

01-17-2004, 05:18 AM

Managing my anger is not the problem I have to deal with very often, but I've found that there are situations that trigger IMMEDIATE RESPONSES to training I received many years ago and that scares me. I've lost most of my hearing and loud or unexpected noises make me move rather suddenly which is not an unusual reaction for most veterans. Most of the time I can control my thoughts of strangling the person who is intertained by my reactions which is to get out of the way. There have been a few occasions where an innocent gesture or movement by others have shifted me immediately into the self defense mode and my reaction physically could be nasty. I thought that after 40+ years I had forgot the training. It is still there and I react faster than an old feller should be able to. No Anger Involved!
I had an old friend (75, a WW-1 marine) who reacted in the same manner when a 20 year old smartmouth triggered him. There was not the least bit of anger involved until afterwards when he thought of how the situation evolved.
I'm a lot more careful now, but it gets tiresome to have to be on guard so much. As an afterthought, any PTS that I have is not related to the military, I don't think... Training, yes. many years in a police car with more than one "Barney Fife" added to it quite a bit.
Ben

usmc26th

01-18-2004, 03:34 PM

I know anger is one of my bigest down falls, and I have to work on it all the time. Some back ground; I was the next to the youngest of 7 kids, My little sis was 10 years younger. I could use anger to get what I wanted from the other kids, So I learned at a early age to use anger.
But I think back on boot camp, the D. I.'s used anger to make us over I do know it came out alot quicker After boot camp. Think about it; Sometimes to deal with something you have to back to where it begain. Jest my thoughts

danausmc

01-18-2004, 04:06 PM

You are right. I was already ticked off when I went to Bootcamp. Had nothing to do with the Marine Corps. Just personal issues when we were kids.
So yeah, the Marine Corps channeled that anger.

Earlier I said there was a story I did not want to share but it did seal the anger and it was way beyond the Marine Corps again.

Duffey touched on it before also, when he said he saw no God of any kind in the jungle. Anger at God and denial of God and a bunch of stuff like that turned me into one callous individual. treated everyone like crap when I got home.

So lets keep this going.
D

pointmanben

01-18-2004, 07:47 PM

I often get angry at myself because of situations that are beyond my control. How many have been there? I hate to feel helpless when something comes up that I can't do anything about and most of the time the situations includes family members or very close friends.
Several years ago (Pre-VA days) I was on tranquilizers, pain meds and muscle relaxants for an injury to my spine. Eventually
I found that they were the cause of many arguements and blow ups. I would consider ANY disagreement as a confrontation and would react very vocally. Many times it would be a remark or statement that I might have said a different way and I would snap at the other person. After thinking about what was said, I'd realize that I was out of line and apologize. If the other party just went on working it was fine but if they said it was O.K. I'd be apt to blow up again and tell them it wasn't O.K. and don't humor me. I spent a lot of time being angry at myself over this type situation until I found out that I was easier to live with if I didn't take these pills.
This is something I'd give a lot of thought to as so many of us are on at least a few VA prescriptions to modify our wonderful personalities.
I'm off those prescriptions now so don't have anything to blame for my wonderful attitude other than myself. And the company I keep.

pointmanben

01-18-2004, 07:56 PM

I'll vouch for Butch. The Marines Basic had to be a picnic after growing up with those sisters..... I can say that without fear as I know they won't be getting on this site. Experience is a great teacher.

ChapMic

01-19-2004, 12:35 AM

Well at least I got the ' free association" part right. I was referring to present day anger , not the historical value and use of anger for survival in combat. I am intimate with that act. I was not a Chaplain in Nam "Duff" I was a Forward Observer with assignments to Force Recon and CAP Units. Me and anger were bonded real well. I just decided to file for a divorce from her! It was that or a stroke or heart attack. I do not pay her alimony either.

usmc26th

01-19-2004, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by ChapMic
Well at least I got the ' free association" part right. I was referring to present day anger , not the historical value and use of anger for survival in combat. I am intimate with that act. I was not a Chaplain in Nam "Duff" I was a Forward Observer with assignments to Force Recon and CAP Units. Me and anger were bonded real well. I just decided to file for a divorce from her! It was that or a stroke or heart attack. I do not pay her alimony either.

In all my counciling with whoever, I was always told that we have to go back to the problem in order to get over it. God had anger all through the Bible. So having anger is normal. Where it isn't normal is when we let it explode. That shows we need to deal with something further or again. God doesn't say not to anger at all thus effectively shut ourselves away from dealing with those parts of our lives. He does say to "be slow to anger" and that makes sense, for If we are slow to anger, we usually have taken the time to think about what is "getting to us" and why.

My anger is better now than it has ever been. That is because I went back more than once to the causes and thought about the effects and did what I had to do to deal with it. I still have outbursts now and then but if you had known me 5 or ten years ago, you would be amazed at how much I have changed from back then. These talks about anger are being read by much more than just a few of us and I think we should keep this going. It is up to each individual person to post or not and whether to dig DEEP or not but if we are to help ourselves and to reach out to others, even guests who may be following this, perhaps helping them with their anger problems, we must carry on. This is my feelings on this. Thank you.

ChapMic

01-20-2004, 12:28 PM

I agree with you "26th". Slow to anger is a good thing to carry. At least it makes us stop and think, before we go to "lizzard brain". I read each post twice to see what I can learn from the "Club" Keep up the good work. One day we might stumble into peace and contentment. 'All things are possible" with HIS grace. Mic/7th Marines

usmc26th

01-20-2004, 05:46 PM

Thank you, All I do is put down what I've learned from other people and what has worked for me. But what I've found out is we're all different and what works for me mite not work for someone else, that is why everyones input is important.
I was allso with the 7th Marines in 65 when we left the states for nam,[that was my frist 13 months]

Sgt. Duffy-USMC

01-21-2004, 05:18 PM

USMC 26TH -

When you had arrived, according to your above post, I had already come and gone. I had already received the first of several wounds... non fatal... none close to fatal... and that is my horror! You see young man, you may have been one of those men.... and a few women.... that I HELPED train for the combat that you saw. For the horror.... for the heartbreak.... for the sheer loneleness of it all. The jungle ate it. The jungle consumed it all..... and left us alone... oh my gawd!

danausmc

01-21-2004, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by Sgt. Duffy-USMC
USMC 26TH -

When you had arrived, according to your above post, I had already come and gone. I had already received the first of several wounds... non fatal... none close to fatal... and that is my horror! You see young man, you may have been one of those men.... and a few women.... that I HELPED train for the combat that you saw. For the horror.... for the heartbreak.... for the sheer loneleness of it all. The jungle ate it. The jungle consumed it all..... and left us alone... oh my gawd!

And by the time I got there, you were already passing into and were part of "The Old Corps".

If not for folks that did the job you did, I am certain I would not be alive today. I volunteered. I wanted to be there. Every trainer, every lesson received, came into play.

The horror, the lonliness, the heartbreak, is just under the surface.

Shrapnel still comes out of my body as a reminder. But I will not live there. And you don't have to either. I won't post again in the death thread unless you are able to continue.

I believe that I will start a new thread as a result of our talks and in respect of your careful and measured messages.

The most difficult part of this is not to call, or private e-mail you with some words of consolation or just a call.
We both made a comittment and I will keep my word.

Is there anything we can do for you?
Let me know,
IN HIM
Dana

ChapMic

01-25-2004, 01:51 AM

Starting this coming Wednesday we are beginning a more structured topical approach to our PTSD Group at the VET Center. There are 11 of us in this group. 2 Desert Storm Vets.
Would the members of this forum like for me to share some of the material from our presenters? Or would you all prefer that I continue to post personal responses? Mic/ 7th Marines

ajusmc

01-25-2004, 02:19 AM

danausmc

01-25-2004, 06:49 AM

usmc26th

01-25-2004, 07:50 AM

Originally posted by Danausmc
That sounds ok. There will always be one particular hot topic from a meeting. Maybe you could post that and we can throw in our two cents.

Go for it.
Dana

I like that, the more help the better, More tools to fight the war on P.T.S.D. Thanks

danausmc

01-30-2004, 08:54 PM

I sure take a long time sometimes to get to posting a reply. One of Duffys Posts indicates that he does not want to open a certain door and and will die before that happens. On the other hand, we can all learn a few things by just being open and listen.
Guys e-mail me and say they think our members are suicidal. Guys e-mail me and say how can you be "up" all the time?
What is the worst thing that can happen by opening any door?
It gets slammed in your face?
Or you get to go through it and move on?
That is the choice we have.
What about being alone? Aloneness?
Why should that matter? The scriptures say that "I will never leave you or forsake you", and that is the promise of God.
I have seen it said that "I never seen God" in Vietnam.
Well I thought that too.
But......look back. Cut past all the why we were there. Cut past all the crap about how the government screwed us. I volunteered.
I see a comment about the upcoming melodrama. What was that we were involved in way back when?
melodrama is a good word.
But where was God?
Angry at God?? You bet. I got to meet a guy one day that turned out to be a distant "cousin", while I was standing security at the Rock Crusher near the "power plant" by the An Hoa combat Base. We lived only miles from one another in the world and had never met each other. His mom and my mom worked together.
We were in the same company. He always carried himself with dignity and reserve. Just a good guy that everyone liked. A Sargeant of Marines.
He would talk to anyone about his faith and also was a comfort when guys would be killed and a model for the others in our platoon. He did not push "religion" or cram his Bible down anyones throat.
One day we were doing a sweep and the truck he was driving hit a mine and another guy jumped on board and pulled him through the windshield because the gas tanks and sides of the cab were on fire.
He died a few days later. Each time someone died, it was like part of you died. Angry at God? you bet.
No one in my company died from gunshots. Every single person died from being blown up. Everyone. Most times there was no one to "pay back". So you just sucked it up and kept going. Did I mention angry?
I guess we were more like the current situation in Iraq.
One here, one there, an ambush every now and then, a little fire fight here and there, but no major battles or all day fire fights for us. A few days would go by and just when you thought it was ok, another explosion and your head was spinning again.
Fight or flight? No where to run. Have to go down the same trail EVERY DAY. First thing ya got told, never go down the same trail every day. But ya have to do it. Others depend on what you do.
So what is the conclusion to this missive?
Others depend on what you do. Even if you are alone. You leave a legacy. Your words may be the only thing that will draw someone to God.
Anger resides within all of us. It is what we CHOOSE to do with it that makes the difference.
One of us has said the he tried for years to mask that anger with booze. Another has nearly died from the drugs. The VA wants you to prozac up and give you happy pills and everything will be ok.
Dont work does it?
I have a friend that has 19 prescription meds from the VA and whatever way he wants to feel, he just combines a few and has a couple drinks and away he goes.
Angry? You bet.
100%??? Angry?
There are thousands of new Vets returning all the time from our most recent wars. We need to get our heads and ..... wired together so they dont go through the same stuff we did.
The Bullet proof mind?
Thats what the military calls their program now, to avoid any lingering trauma for returning Vets.
Bunk. Angry? You bet.
Is that why all branches are experiencieng increased suicide rates and marital problems?
I am really rambling here.
Will get more in when I can think more coherently.
Dana

danausmc

01-30-2004, 11:07 PM

So what you say.....I was just turning the page on my calander and what scripture was on the page?

Proverbs 16:13

He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty,
and he who rules his spirit than he who takes a city.

Dean Black

01-31-2004, 10:37 AM

Dana, I keep this quote from Charles Swindoll on my desk, I had lost the first copy I had and Debra Jarmon gave me a copy of her's. Here it is "The longer I live, the more I realize the impact of attitude on life. Attitude to me is more important than the past, than education, than money, than circumstances, than failures, than successes, than what other people think or say or do.
It is more important than appearance, giftedness or skill. It will make or break a company.. a church.. a home. The remarkable thing is we have a choice every day regarding the attitude we will embrace for that day. We cannot change our past.. we cannot change the fact that people will act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable. The only thin we can do is play on the one thing we have, and that is our "ATTITUDE"... I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it. And so it is with you.... we are in charge of our attitudes."
Proverbs 3: 7-8 states; Don't be impressed with your own wisdom, instead, Fear the the Lord and turn your back on evil; Then you will gain renewed health and vitality.
Dean :cart127:

danausmc

01-31-2004, 01:18 PM

Thanks for the quotes, it is very good and true.
I (we) need to be more cognizant of our own attitudes.

Sgt. Duffy-USMC

02-03-2004, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by Dean Black
Dana, I keep this quote from Charles Swindoll on my desk, I had lost the first copy I had and Debra Jarmon gave me a copy of her's. Here it is "The longer I live, the more I realize the impact of attitude on life. Attitude to me is more important than the past, than education, than money, than circumstances, than failures, than successes, than what other people think or say or do.
It is more important than appearance, giftedness or skill. It will make or break a company.. a church.. a home. The remarkable thing is we have a choice every day regarding the attitude we will embrace for that day. We cannot change our past.. we cannot change the fact that people will act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable. The only thin we can do is play on the one thing we have, and that is our "ATTITUDE"... I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it. And so it is with you.... we are in charge of our attitudes."
Proverbs 3: 7-8 states; Don't be impressed with your own wisdom, instead, Fear the the Lord and turn your back on evil; Then you will gain renewed health and vitality.
Dean :cart127:

Dean,

"Fear the Lord." I think not. I have been there my friend. It is not his power or his knowledge that I fear... it is what is in my heart.

Duffy

Shawn Powell

02-06-2004, 07:38 AM

Originally posted by ChapMic
Starting this coming Wednesday we are beginning a more structured topical approach to our PTSD Group at the VET Center. There are 11 of us in this group. 2 Desert Storm Vets.
Would the members of this forum like for me to share some of the material from our presenters? Or would you all prefer that I continue to post personal responses? Mic/ 7th Marines

ChapMic,

I would like to be part of that, if you don't mind. I know I'm a day late and a dollar short but I've been reading the posts concerning anger... I'd like to deal with it, I guess. I know my typical pattern fatigues me... there's a trigger, then anger, then absolute rage followed by deep depression. Maybe I should just continue to read until I'm ready to give some more input. Those Desert Storm boys, Marines? Army grunts? Please keep this going.

God Bless.

danausmc

02-07-2004, 10:10 PM

Originally posted by Sgt. Duffy-USMC
Dean,

"Fear the Lord." I think not. I have been there my friend. It is not his power or his knowledge that I fear... it is what is in my heart.

Duffy

My limited understanding of scripture would say to me that "Fear the Lord" in this context means reverential awe and respect for Gods power and authority.

What is in your heart and mine too is nothing new. From scripture, the promise of God to me and you too, is this, figuratively, when you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour and became a Christian, you were washed in the Blood of Jesus and made squeaky clean.
So He could present you before God as His own.

That means that you now have the power resident within you to overcome any thing in you heart. Seems to me that without that power, the vows you have made mean nothing and are for show. With that power, those same vows honor God and seperate you for a good work, unencumbered by life around you. Your present health situation notwithstanding, God has created you for a special purpose and I can see much good coming from your participation at the FEW and here too.

God has promised that the sacrifice made by Jesus Christ on your behalf, cleans up that rotton heart and all that is within you, and makes you new.

So that is what your little post to Dean has made me think.

Dana

ChapMic

02-08-2004, 03:06 AM

We used to use the term; FRAG in thinking of the triggers of anger. Fear/Rage/Anger/Guilt. So why do we frag ourselves; when we know that anger eats the vessel that contains it?
I myself believe that anger is an attempt to abolish a part of ourselves that we find distasteful and uncomfortable, and do it with an audience. It is the audience that gives the juice to the emotion. No audience---weak response. What if we were our own audience- would the rage be meaningful?

"In those days, people will seek death, but will not find it. They will long to die, but death will not flee away"
Revelation 9;6

Sgt. Duffy-USMC

02-08-2004, 12:59 PM

I hear the sounds and feel the vibrations of a rusty old key turning a lock in my heart.....

Well done, Dana.

Duffy

Shawn Powell

02-08-2004, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by ChapMic
We used to use the term; FRAG in thinking of the triggers of anger. Fear/Rage/Anger/Guilt. So why do we frag ourselves; when we know that anger eats the vessel that contains it?
I myself believe that anger is an attempt to abolish a part of ourselves that we find distasteful and uncomfortable, and do it with an audience. It is the audience that gives the juice to the emotion. No audience---weak response. What if we were our own audience- would the rage be meaningful?

"In those days, people will seek death, but will not find it. They will long to die, but death will not flee away"
Revelation 9;6

From a Biblical standpoint, I know that anger is an emotion that God implanted in every man... "Be angry but sin not...." I think we can justify it by attacking corinthian-type behavior in a body of believers or in the individual life of a brother. I know Jesus kicked some serious ass in the temple when He went after the money changers and other dirtbags that were exploiting innocent worshippers in the house of God. I know my adrenalin gets churning when I anticipate a threat to my family or friends or within societal circles when there is an unjust event taking place or the bad guys are close. I get into trouble however when I lose control and it escalates into rage... often directed to a civilian that may be unappreciative of this country, or the idiocy of extended family or the numerous other occurances you and I deal with in life... it just goes on and on.... I would love to be able to just listen for 2/3 of the time and then open my mouth about 1/3 of the time or less. Long story short, yes I FRAG myself pretty consistantly but don't think me being the only audience would control it if I understood you correctly. Sure would love to be part of that group... if God could miracle my butt to Tucson every Wednesday, it'd be a done deal! :funny:

God Bless.

danausmc

02-08-2004, 07:56 PM

If I understood Mike and your response Shawn, I dont believe the rage with no audience has any difference. What happens in your car when you get tickd off? Scream and shout at the pea brain that cut you off? he dont see you, and does not care either. So waht happens? you save it up and dump it on someone else.
If I got to suffer, you will suffer too. That is what I see.
Dana

Shawn Powell

02-09-2004, 05:40 PM

opps

As a believer and struggling with anger, depression, et al... there are times when I wonder where is this abundant life that Jesus promised? Where is the light burden or the easy yoke? Romans 12 talks of renewing one's mind and presenting your bodies living sacrifices... "holy, acceptable unto God which is your reasonable service...." But oh man is that a battle for me, brothers. Spiritually it really "hurts" at times to believe God and what He thinks of you. The Word really does do some surgery on you....

Then I see David's struggles in the Psalms... I have to believe he battled PTSD not only from wars but from the loss of loved ones, sons, the dysfunctional family under his leadership and enemies from within Israel that wanted him dead. Not to mention the situation with Bathsheeba and her husband... yet I do see how God delivered him out of all of that, not without consequences obviously... but I do see God's faithfulness in his life. I do see how David poured his heart out to God in EVERYTHING. This all before the new covenant in Jesus. Again, not sure what my point is, men. But I am very thankful I can share my heart with you guys.

I guess it just again lets me know that transformation to Christlikeness is a life long journey. Chapmic, if you want to, you can e-mail me re: Wednesdays. Maybe we can share some stuff, I dunno.

God Bless.

danausmc

02-09-2004, 06:27 PM

Some how you got to get a couple guys together that you can sit and talk with, or do it here.
The flip side of what we are saying to each other, is we need a place to throw out what is on our mind and get some feed back.
You have clearly stated what we all feel almost all the the time about our relationship with God.
Duffy and I made a covenant not to use private e-mail or regular e-mail but post all our stuff to each other here. What that has done is really open up my thinking because everyone can see it. PM or e-mail is really not conducive to the truth as we are sharing. It is so easy to shade your thoughts and feelings. This way, we have to really think about what is said and its impact. You just cant delete as soon as you read a post.
About David, you are right. You did leave out that God said he was a man after His own heart.
Important to remember. Everytime he screwd up. he sought God and received forgivness. Every time.
One other thing I believe is real important. Differentiate between Heart knowledge and Head knowledge. Why?
Anyone can memorize scripture, but few apply it.
hope this makes sense to you.
Dana

Shawn Powell

02-09-2004, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by Danausmc
Some how you got to get a couple guys together that you can sit and talk with, or do it here.
The flip side of what we are saying to each other, is we need a place to throw out what is on our mind and get some feed back.
You have clearly stated what we all feel almost all the the time about our relationship with God.
Duffy and I made a covenant not to use private e-mail or regular e-mail but post all our stuff to each other here. What that has done is really open up my thinking because everyone can see it. PM or e-mail is really not conducive to the truth as we are sharing. It is so easy to shade your thoughts and feelings. This way, we have to really think about what is said and its impact. You just cant delete as soon as you read a post.
About David, you are right. You did leave out that God said he was a man after His own heart.
Important to remember. Everytime he screwd up. he sought God and received forgivness. Every time.
One other thing I believe is real important. Differentiate between Heart knowledge and Head knowledge. Why?
Anyone can memorize scripture, but few apply it.
hope this makes sense to you.
Dana

Absolute sense, Dana. My heart is an open book to you guys.... May I humbly request to be part of that covenant as well?
Too, anyone CAN memorize scripture... I don't think God gets impressed with that does He? The application... that's the biggie. It scares me, but it's a healthy scare. Thanks.
I met Mike Zorn over here... had a nice time with him at coffee on Saturday 7 FEB. Bob Silveria dropped me a line as well. They're
solid guys... that's my group I guess.

God Bless, Dana.

chapmick

02-23-2004, 12:17 PM

Well now. it is a treat to be back amongst ya'. My perimeter was penetrated by 'cookies" And it wasn't the Barber that we caught in the wire! I think it was that "Spybot" software we installed.
So my PTS motivated me enough to drop a few 81's on the Village of Cookies, and I have not even heard a barking dog all night. But just like "Charlie" I am sure the Cookie Sappers will be back. This time I got the claymores facing the right direction!
On a serious note. Even though it was only a week or so, I sure did miss the PMIM Chat Squad. "Wherever there are two gathered in my name" is a pretty powerful potion. I hope to keep breaking bread on these Thread Altars for a long time.
God speed with all my Bro's who are in the throes of TET at this time of the year. It is not an anniversary that vanishes.
Our Wednesday Group is now focused on the topic of "Mindfulness" It is time tested and extraordinarily good material. Some of the posters indicated the desire to participate through this Thread. So I will try to post the stuff that seems to be relevant to our discussiions here. S/F Mike

Shawn Powell

02-23-2004, 12:48 PM

Hey Bro...

Hooah... but I think you Marines say "Oorah" or something like that...?

God Bless.

chapmick

02-26-2004, 02:13 PM

Just saw the "Passion" last night. Wondering what the Apostles did for their PTSD? I thnik they started a Chat Group! And then someone a few years later called it the Bible.

Reconvic

02-27-2004, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by Danausmc
I sure take a long time sometimes to get to posting a reply. One of Duffys Posts indicates that he does not want to open a certain door and and will die before that happens. On the other hand, we can all learn a few things by just being open and listen.
Guys e-mail me and say they think our members are suicidal. Guys e-mail me and say how can you be "up" all the time?
What is the worst thing that can happen by opening any door?
It gets slammed in your face?
Or you get to go through it and move on?
That is the choice we have.
What about being alone? Aloneness?
Why should that matter? The scriptures say that "I will never leave you or forsake you", and that is the promise of God.
I have seen it said that "I never seen God" in Vietnam.
Well I thought that too.
But......look back. Cut past all the why we were there. Cut past all the crap about how the government screwed us. I volunteered.
I see a comment about the upcoming melodrama. What was that we were involved in way back when?
melodrama is a good word.
But where was God?
Angry at God?? You bet. I got to meet a guy one day that turned out to be a distant "cousin", while I was standing security at the Rock Crusher near the "power plant" by the An Hoa combat Base. We lived only miles from one another in the world and had never met each other. His mom and my mom worked together.
We were in the same company. He always carried himself with dignity and reserve. Just a good guy that everyone liked. A Sargeant of Marines.
He would talk to anyone about his faith and also was a comfort when guys would be killed and a model for the others in our platoon. He did not push "religion" or cram his Bible down anyones throat.
One day we were doing a sweep and the truck he was driving hit a mine and another guy jumped on board and pulled him through the windshield because the gas tanks and sides of the cab were on fire.
He died a few days later. Each time someone died, it was like part of you died. Angry at God? you bet.
No one in my company died from gunshots. Every single person died from being blown up. Everyone. Most times there was no one to "pay back". So you just sucked it up and kept going. Did I mention angry?
I guess we were more like the current situation in Iraq.
One here, one there, an ambush every now and then, a little fire fight here and there, but no major battles or all day fire fights for us. A few days would go by and just when you thought it was ok, another explosion and your head was spinning again.
Fight or flight? No where to run. Have to go down the same trail EVERY DAY. First thing ya got told, never go down the same trail every day. But ya have to do it. Others depend on what you do.
So what is the conclusion to this missive?
Others depend on what you do. Even if you are alone. You leave a legacy. Your words may be the only thing that will draw someone to God.
Anger resides within all of us. It is what we CHOOSE to do with it that makes the difference.
One of us has said the he tried for years to mask that anger with booze. Another has nearly died from the drugs. The VA wants you to prozac up and give you happy pills and everything will be ok.
Dont work does it?
I have a friend that has 19 prescription meds from the VA and whatever way he wants to feel, he just combines a few and has a couple drinks and away he goes.
Angry? You bet.
100%??? Angry?
There are thousands of new Vets returning all the time from our most recent wars. We need to get our heads and ..... wired together so they dont go through the same stuff we did.
The Bullet proof mind?
Thats what the military calls their program now, to avoid any lingering trauma for returning Vets.
Bunk. Angry? You bet.
Is that why all branches are experiencieng increased suicide rates and marital problems?
I am really rambling here.
Will get more in when I can think more coherently.
Dana

Dana, I take about 7 pills a day but can't really drink anymore due to Hep C from one of the transfusions I had in the Nam. I tell the shrinks at the VA, I am angry and they tell me I'm depressed,
I am not depressed at all but pissed off I can get fast! I told the Doc that this week and what does he do gives me another pill to take. Pills will not stop my nightmares. Just venting out bro's , May God bless you all.
ReconVic

Shawn Powell

02-27-2004, 02:19 PM

Depression and anger go hand in hand, man. When I go balls-to-the-wall with rage, I "come down" hard with newly-conceived regrets from my outburst(s) and then that friggin black hole opens up and I fall in it. That's depression.

What are the regrets?
- making innocent people your target and/or they just get peppered with the fragments

- wishing you could communicate effectively without people thinking you are crazy

- often worsening a problem by said outbursts (do-gooder, lawsuit-conscious individuals can escalate their account of what you thought was just a butt-chewing into potential genocide....)

- straining family relationships or that of close friends

- wishing you could set a better example for your kids

Just a small list of the regrets that trigger my valleys, often after what I deemed to be a "justifiable" outburst. Did I tell you I hit a guy in the nuts at church once? How about the time I went all drill sergeant on the middle school youth group? (They couldn't comprehend what I was bellowiing about regarding a "cakehole" or pulling their head out of something called a "fourth point of contact"....)

All I got is Jesus and through His Grace and Mercy I believe it's getting better, but painfully slowly. You dig a huge crater, sometimes you gotta fill it up a teaspoon at a time.

For whatever it's worth....

Shawn. :cross_glo

danausmc

02-27-2004, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by Reconvic
Dana, I take about 7 pills a day but can't really drink anymore due to Hep C from one of the transfusions I had in the Nam. I tell the shrinks at the VA, I am angry and they tell me I'm depressed,
I am not depressed at all but pissed off I can get fast! I told the Doc that this week and what does he do gives me another pill to take. Pills will not stop my nightmares. Just venting out bro's , May God bless you all.
ReconVic

Yeah, pills. My friend, another Marine, takes 19 different VA meds for depression and bi-polar and manic depression and you name it. Came to a Pointman meeting and raved about the VA shrink he has seen since the early 70's. But when someone said why do you have to take all this stuff, if she is so good? He got unglued. He can mix and match any of the pills and wash it down with some Jack and feel anyway he wants to. Stays up all night playing loud music or cadence tapes because he cant deal with the nightmares.

Read Shawns post again, it makes a lot of sense. never thought of it that way.
S/F Vic and welcome back
Dana

danausmc

02-27-2004, 02:51 PM

Good points to Vics letter.

I agree with you. You sound like me. I have done that very same drill more times than I ever want to remember.

Go ballistic and then feel bad. We were conditioned to believe that was the right thing to do , the way we were brought up.

So it goes way past the Military. Your kids watch you real close and mimic everything you do. It is a real struggle to act "right" and be the role model necessary to raise those kids.

Yeah, I have done stupid stuff like you talk about all my life. Seemed right at the time, but when it was over, I could not face the consequences of my actions.

One time my brother "borrowed " some of my albums and I held him on the floor and broke every one of them over his head, until my mom beat me with the belt until I got off him. Boy do I feel stupid now, but thought it was right at the time. To this day, I dont know what possesed me to do that. Never said I was sorry,

SO HERE GOES.....Sorry Al, forgive me.

Reconvic

02-27-2004, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by Shawn Powell
Depression and anger go hand in hand, man. When I go balls-to-the-wall with rage, I "come down" hard with newly-conceived regrets from my outburst(s) and then that friggin black hole opens up and I fall in it. That's depression.

What are the regrets?
- making innocent people your target and/or they just get peppered with the fragments

- wishing you could communicate effectively without people thinking you are crazy

- often worsening a problem by said outbursts (do-gooder, lawsuit-conscious individuals can escalate their account of what you thought was just a butt-chewing into potential genocide....)

- straining family relationships or that of close friends

- wishing you could set a better example for your kids

Just a small list of the regrets that trigger my valleys, often after what I deemed to be a "justifiable" outburst. Did I tell you I hit a guy in the nuts at church once? How about the time I went all drill sergeant on the middle school youth group? (They couldn't comprehend what I was bellowiing about regarding a "cakehole" or pulling their head out of something called a "fourth point of contact"....)

All I got is Jesus and through His Grace and Mercy I believe it's getting better, but painfully slowly. You dig a huge crater, sometimes you gotta fill it up a teaspoon at a time.

For whatever it's worth....

Shawn. :cross_glo

Shawn, Dana is correct as well as you I just never seen it that way before. I am a nice person to be around , untill something sets me off then I have a real hard time in thinking it out then acting on it as I usally do. With Gods help and coming here, it sure can't hurt . Again thanks bro.

Sgt. Duffy-USMC

02-28-2004, 12:54 AM

Anger - fear - depression - loneleness - anxiety - shame - pain - regret - disappointment - guilt - lack of self-esteem - rage at unknown situations - obseve/compulsive behavior - substance abuse - broken relationships - my terrified children - lost jobs - lack of hope - isolationism - fight or flight - shrinks - treatment programs - loss of friends - confusion - manic highs - crushing lows - haunting memories - false or impractical or irrational future goals - helplessness.

Sounds like a true or false questionare for a free trip to the funny farm; does it not? Perhaps it is... and if so ... then I have a life time membership to the funny farm of my choice. Because every one of the conditions above have applied to me at one time or another over my lifetime since I was Honorably Discharged from the Marine Corps.

Nothing since the Marines has meant anything... repeat... anything to me ... but the Marines. Nothing has equaled the Honor... the adrenalin rush... or the impact power of the Marines. Nothing. No matter what I achieved, from Corporate President of a logging company - to a bartender in a local sleezy dive - in a sleezy neighborhood - where I was continually drunker than my drunkest "regular customer". Before I openned the bar doors in the morning for the two or three men already leaning up against the wall waiting for me to do so.... I had to have a bloody-mary, the alcohol content of which would, with that single drink, put me over the DWI blood/alcohol limits.

Oh, yes. I know, and have experienced, what so many of us have felt that express themselves here in the forum. I am not alone. And neither are you.

Speaking in generalities we are much the same - speaking as individuals - we all differ in our suffering and our ways of dealing with it. I don't have the answer! I can't give advice on how to deal with a problem - that I can't even deal with myself.

But I can do this. I can tell you that my way of doing things in the past did not work! I failed. And I suffered the consequences. But not alone! Those around me, loved ones, caring friends, concerned employers, brothers - sisters, store clerks, anyone close to me... within reach of my actions ... suffered the consequences with me ... and not one of them ever asked to be involved in the price that I had to pay for my actions. Not one.

Age perhaps, the mellowing of time-perhaps, declining health-perhaps - a seed of sanity planted by someone along the way that began to grow within me - perhaps the sound of a creaking door openning on an area in my mind and heart that I had sworn to keep close until death - perhaps, one or all of the above occured and changes started taking place. Slow, quietly, subtle. But changes started to show themselves in a kind and gentle way. Others noticed it long before I did. But when I did notice it, I liked it. It was hard in the beginning... trying to be nice to people... even when I was stressed out. So, many times I just faked it. But the results were the same. Almost everytime I chose to deliberately be nice and avoid the anger, good things happened. People smiled back at me! People treated me with a little more respect - courtesy even. And I like it even more.

Oh, I would just love to say that the world changed all around me and became the paradise of utopia that I sought - but that is not the case. The world has not changed - utopia may be waiting in the presence of our Lord - when the time comes to join him. But not here... not today... not tomorrow.

What I have today - is simple. I have the opportunity to show kindness and caring for those I come into contact with... and reap the reward of comfort and pleasure that I receive from those actions. And more and more often, that reward is the gentle smile on the face of a person who is totally without the knowledge of how much effort and work it took to get to the place where I am today. I can see it on their faces - I can hear it in there voice - I can read their body language - and I know when they are sincere in their smile ... and each time I am fortunate enough to experience that moment - a sad memory from the past is gently erased.

Duffy

danausmc

03-03-2004, 03:07 AM

If you normally don't look at the prayer requests, or if you always go there first, please go back again and remember to read and pray over the request by LOU, USMC26, for Sgt. Duffy.
Thanks.
Dana

chapmick

03-13-2004, 11:33 AM

When General Lee capitulated he said to General Grant; "You only won Sir because you had more Irishman than I"!! (True quote). I am the Announcer for the Saint Patricks Day Parade tomorrow and Point Man has an entry. Both of the riders in a classic 1957 Thunderbird are Vets and PTS folk. Army Vet and a Combat Nurse.
One of the more helpful remedies for PTSD, is simply to stay involved in small ways. Erin go braugh! Mic

chapmick

03-22-2004, 10:35 PM

Yo, where did everyone go? Did I miss a Patrol? Mic

BORNAGAINVET

04-22-2004, 02:00 AM

SEVENTH IRAQ WAR VETERAN KILLS HIMSELF
By Mark Benjamin
United Press International
Tuesday 16 March 2004

WASHINGTON, March 16 (UPI) -- A Colorado-based Army Special Forces soldier back from Iraq shot himself in the head in his front yard Sunday night, according to police -- at least the seventh soldier who has committed suicide after serving there.

William Howell, 36, shot himself after following his wife around the yard with a handgun, according to the El Paso County Sheriff's Office. Howell served with the 10th Special Forces group in Iraq and returned to Fort Carson last month, according to the Army.

Another soldier who was attached to that unit in Iraq, Staff Sgt. Georg-Andreas Pogany, has claimed that the 10th Special Forces Group ignored him when he sought help with mental problems there, and then charged him with cowardice instead. Pogany, 32, also says the Army is ignoring the side effects of an anti-malaria drug called Lariam he took with the Special Forces, which has been linked to mental problems, aggression and suicides.

The Army's Special Operations Command did not respond to a question Tuesday about whether Howell had taken the drug or had sought help for mental health concerns.

The El Paso County Sheriff's Department got a phone call just before 9:30 Sunday night from Howell's wife about a "physical disturbance" at their home in Monument. She said her husband had gone to get a gun. Police said the line then went dead. When they called back, Howell said there was no problem.

When police arrived, Howell was following his wife around the yard with a handgun and talking to her. "He was ordered to drop his weapon by one of the officers, but instead placed the weapon to his head and pulled the trigger," the sheriff's office said in a statement. One officer fired at Howell, not realizing whom Howell was shooting at, and hit Howell in the arm. The El Paso County Coroner said Howell died from his own shot.

Howell's wife was treated for a minor head injury. A 13-year-old and two infants were in the house, unharmed.

Police said they have no records of previous domestic disputes involving Howell or his address.

Pogany, the soldier who was charged with cowardice, has said he suffered a debilitating panic attack in Iraq last fall after seeing the body of a mangled Iraqi while with 10th Special Forces. He says he sought help, but was rebuffed, and eventually charged with cowardice, which is punishable by death. The Army has since withdrawn those charges but he continues to fight the Army on others.

In Iraq, the Special Forces had just given Pogany his third Lariam pill when he suffered the attack. The Food and Drug Administration warns that Lariam can cause panic attacks, thoughts of suicide, depression, anxiety, paranoia, delusions and psychosis that can occur long after taking the drug.

A leading veterans' advocate two months ago warned Congress that soldiers who experience mental problems during or after deployments> need help and not punishment.

"Nowhere is this apparent disregard for psychological injuries more apparent than in the case of Sgt. Georg-Andreas Pogany, who was charged with cowardice," Steve Robinson, Executive Director of the National Gulf War Resource Center, told a House Armed Services Committee panel on Jan. 21.

Robinson, a former Army Ranger, told UPI that some soldiers have heard about the Pogany case and are afraid of seeking help because of what happened to him. "This Pogany case has had a chilling effect on soldiers coming forward. I have talked to soldiers who have said it," he said.

Robinson also asked Congress to look into Lariam. "This drug needs to be investigated to determine if it is harming and in some cases killing our own soldiers," Robinson told that panel.

It is not clear whether Howell ever asked for help when he returned from Iraq, but Pogany's attorney, Rich Travis, said the Special Forces have created an "atmosphere" that makes soldiers afraid to seek help. "I think it is the Special Forces that does create an atmosphere where you can not approach your commander and ask for help," Travis said. "I don't think it is a leap of logic to think (Howell) knew how Georg was treated by the chain of command. I think it was pretty well known."

Travis also said the Army, which invented Lariam, is now ignoring its side effects.

Three special operations soldiers who served in Afghanistan and had apparently taken Lariam allegedly killed their wives at Fort Bragg in the summer of 2002. Those three soldiers also committed suicide.

In the investigation into the Fort Bragg killings, the Army said that Lariam could not have triggered a cluster of five apparent murders and three suicides from that summer because some suspects did not take Lariam.

Suicides in connection with Operation Iraqi Freedom have become an issue after an unusual spike occurred last summer in Iraq. The Pentagon says 21 Army suicides have been confirmed in Iraq and Kuwait -- reflecting a suicide rate within the normal range. A report on mental health problems in Iraq was ordered last August by the Army surgeon general but has not been released.

According to the Army, six soldiers have killed themselves after returning from Iraq, not counting Howell. UPI reported that one soldier back from Iraq died last July, and another this January, at Walter Reed Army Medical Center. A Fort Campbell soldier who had been in Iraq killed himself in January.

I don't know where else to put this, i've been asleep, my little bro's hurti'n now what?

chapmick

04-22-2004, 11:00 PM

If your little bro is hurtin and has any indication of self destructive behavior. You call me right away and I will go there- no matter where he is. Mic Brewer
520-795-2223. I will put him in touch with a newly formed Iraqi Veterans Group.

Shawn Powell

04-24-2004, 01:40 PM

Hey BORNAGAINVET--

I've been out of the AO for the last week... the army's doing it's typical stupid **** again. Using these warriors and discarding them like toilet paper... what a crime...! I am praying for you and your brother, okay? The Lord's gonna get us through this thing, man. It ain't gonna be pretty and we'll be smelling like smoke when it's over but God is faithful. Call if you need to talk, bro. We may end up playing phone tag, but I'll call you back if you leave a message. 509-327-0773, after 1800 HRS is the best time to catch my butt.

danausmc

04-25-2004, 08:47 PM

I don't know where else to put this, i've been asleep, my little bro's hurti'n now what?

Jeff,
I just got back on here tonight and saw this post. To say the least, my little bro's hurtin is right on. We have a big problem here and it wont go away and no one seems to grasp the magnitude.

I just spent a couple days at a Vietnam Veterans Reunion and it was business as usual. Thousands of Viet Vets, but its like a time warp. 50 or 60 year old guys, all decked out in their colors and pony tails and beards, strutting around like 19 year olds, but STILL HURTING. And now the hurt is like an IDOL.
And that Idol is hanging on their neck and no one will take it off. Looks like the thinking to me is "this is mine to bear" and if I dont, or wont, I have to give up. And then it moves to depression and then ..........

There are many guys that write stuff that PTSD and other problems associated with combat are exaggerated and just an excuse not to work. No one wants to look like a sissy. So you are expected to just suck it up, and get on with your life. NOBODY that says that has any clue what the other guy went through. Never.

Here is one I heard after your War. So what do you want?
You got a parade so quit whining. WE DONT WANT TO HEAR IT.
That is the kind of stuff I heard and you can expect to hear it again.

Said all that to say this...you have a Military Hospital near you? Or a Military Base?
Get with the Chaplains and Volunteer. Get some PTSD Materials and get them to the Chaplains and TALK. It will be good for you and also the guys. They have voluntary meetings now, but they are not well attended because no one wants to appear to have a problem, and or jepoardize their careers.

The Army calls it the Bullet Proof mind, but it aint working.

chapmick

04-26-2004, 01:57 AM

Very well said Dana. I like that "Hurt becomes an Idol" That is material for some poetry or one darn good country song. Ya know that "bullet proof mind" stuff is such a bad spin on the core of our humanity that it could even back fire one day. MY Gunny Sgt. was the toughest mongrel I have ever known to this day. But he was also one of the most humane. We would do anything for that Man. He always briefed us about how our experieces from daily patrols would be with us for life. He was in Korea, he knew, he knew well. And lo and behold 34 years later the honcho who ran our 3 week PTS Program at the VA drilled us for the first 3 days about the neurobiological permanence of PTS,and how it would be with us for life. Knowing that something this serious has altered your brain for life, is very critical to the development of the tools to deal with the symptoms. But like you say Dana, that does not say that we have to make an Idol out of the Hurt. I suppose that would be akin to wanting some "specialness' because of my permament 'baldness".
The HURT may bond us, but the dis-robing of those Idols of hurt is what gives us wings.

Shawn Powell

04-26-2004, 07:15 AM

I think that's right on the money....

Shawn.

danausmc

05-01-2004, 10:15 PM

In a previous post, and some of the other posts, we have talked about anger, hurts, disappointments and lots of other issues related to our dealing with PTSD and its effects on our lives.

This past week in Florida, I got to see many things and reflect on them. One in particular is the fact that wherever I was, NO ONE seems to grasp that Americans are dying almost daily in foreign lands, and as I moved around, it looks like people are just in a fog or some kind of zone. At Disney, the grand kids and me were checking it out and ALL the people just seemed to have this glazed look and stared into space like automatons. Strangest thing to watch. I dont even know where I am going with this post, but it is bothering me.
What I think I saw was the opposite of what I believe.
People just putting one foot in front of the other and forgetting that life is a gift from God to be enjoyed and to live.
On route 95 to Melbourne, bumper to bumper, 75 or 80 MPH. One screw up and fatal crash. No time to watch ahead, but if you dont, you are asking for it. Sort of like life right now.
If you walk point, and you dont look ahead, and see the whole picture, and recognize the signs, you will die. No question.
So it seems with life today, too many folks in a fog and just dont have any Idea where they are going or even worse, cant tell you where they have been.
Well if this makes sense to someone let me know.
Dana

Shawn Powell

05-03-2004, 08:22 AM

They ARE oblivious to our losses overseas, Dana. Talk about being in a fog or a daze or whatever. We lose what? 136 Marines over a two-week period in Fallujah and then turn it over to the ragheads for "self-policing"? What kind of crack has the senior leadership been smoking? After losing those American contractors Fallujah should've been leveled. Now we don't take the city... stop all ops into it and 136 Marines are KIA with nothing to show for it... my heart is broken, Dana. No one around here seems to understand when I talk about this stuff... they are completely detached, it's ridiculous... it's almost embarrassing.

Right, I'm having a rough go today... but I'm glad your back and posting... glad you kind of see the same stuff I'm seeing. I was praying the other day "Lord I know I'm stinking up the place down here, I know I'll be last in line and smelling like smoke when I see You face-to-face... but I know I'll be with You in heaven... empty bag of rewards and all... but I know I'll be with You." Amen! Come Lord Jesus.

Shawn. :hurt: :hurt:

danausmc

05-05-2004, 08:55 PM

chapmick

05-05-2004, 10:51 PM

I am sittin" right beside you guys. Been absent for a awhile, because I am taking some classes that I had a ton of homework for. Discipline is an old muscle for me!
But yeah, Dana, that 'status quo' thinking is maddening. I often feel like John the Baptist wailing in the wilderness. The numb normalness is almost a bloddy trigger for that ole PTS dark angel.
And those people ridin the tail of each other on the Freeway's-- Do they actually have 'thoughts"? I drive to Phoenix each weekend to announce for a Pro Soccer Team and I now take the back roads. That way they can be NASCAR and I can have real thoughts. Those punks in tiny little cars with big mufflers, riding my fanny are like "Charlie" they are endangering the life of my troops! All I worry about on the back roads are tractors! Guess I am really gettin old. Mic

Shawn Powell

05-06-2004, 01:47 PM

Hey Mic, Dana check this out...

Speaking of dealing with other motorists... I was making a lane change the other morning, using my blinker and the whole works, right? Well this individual decides to speed up and not let me in... I change the lane anyway and I get honked at flipped off. Sooooo...

Yours truly changes back into the right hand lane, allows the subject in question to pass and then proceed to chase him down and bless him with a plethora of colorful adjectives... or words to the effect of "You saw my blinker, you knew I was gonna change lanes, why'd you do that?" Salt and Light, I'll tell you what. :funny:

Has anyone heard what Duffy's status is? How he's holding up? Can't seem to get an answer.

Dana let me know if I can do anything....

Shawn.

05-06-2004, 07:16 PM

What about today?

Ive been in sort of a doldrums here. cant seem to shake the blues over the war.

I am having a lot of trouble with "business as usual" around wherever I go.

What about responsibility? Personal responsibility???

What about the thousands of men and women in harms way??

We still have folks in Bosnia. Afghanistan. Korea. Central America. Marines in Haiti. All over the middle east. What about them???

Look around and see what and how people are acting. Are they in a fog???

Why??

Look at TV and compared to letters home we see, you would think there is a different war.

I read a column by a guy that spoke at the 34 th anniversary of the Kent State demonstrations and so far to the left, it was embarrasing. Then it led to outright anger.

I need to get my head on straight and will post more tomorrow.

Dana

Dana,

I think you are feeling what many of us are feeling. It IS frustrating and gets ones ire up when we know what is going on and the media seems to be on another planet. Kissing up to the "left" (just in case) and for whatever other idiotic reasons they can come up with.

It is a daily battle to keep ones head on straight with all that is going on around us. Our son in Iraq called us recently and emails us now and then when he can and it is painful to see the stupidity of the people out there that believe what the TV is portraying and how they ignore what should be put out for all to see when he and so many other fine sons and daughters are out there in harms way. Butch and I find ourselves muting the TV, at times, or yelling words at the TV not fit for Christian ears (or for Christians to be yelling). The stress levels are high at our house and we pray a lot and do our best to let God have control of our emotions but.......we are imperfect beings and we fall, stand up, fall again, stand up and when all else fails, we sometimes just chuck it all and get in our vehicle and take the whole day and wander around in the forest here. It's not a cure for anything but it helps us maintain our sanity for yet another day of media lies and grandstanding for the far left.

Freedom is never free as we know so well and the price of freedom with all its suffering and death is sometimes a hard pill to swallow but with pride and with love for our Military, be it past, present or future, I say to you...that where ever, all the chaos in the world, and where ever, this war leads, I along with many many others hold you all in the highest esteem and with the highest pride and honor, commend and thank you for your loyalty and faithfulness.

I know that this war is a bitter taste in many mouths for many and varied reasons. Whether we agree or disagree about the war and/or its policies and leaders, we need to be strong and full of pride never letting anyone in their ignorance break us down in our support of those fighting sons in various parts of the world. I don't care what the media says...even tho it sometimes makes me so very angry or sickened, and I can be assured that with much prayer that God IS on our side. We must hold true to that and have faith in that. We must!

Shawn Powell

05-06-2004, 08:19 PM

Amen and amen.

danausmc

05-07-2004, 09:42 PM

danausmc

05-08-2004, 10:26 PM

So here I am today, go to the store and start buying stuff to send to my young neighbor in the 1st CAV in Iraq. Things are moving right along, and it becomes this impulse buying thing.
Then I look around and my brain is engaged somewhere in 1968. I think, boy, I sure liked it when I got some stuff from home. Sent some slim jims, some granola bars, a bunch of baby wipes, some mandarin oranges and gum and just what ever. Filled up the box and got it over to the Post Office sround 7:30 tonight. Its open around the clock and busy every time I been there.

But while Im in 1968, Im thinking that these people dont have a clue and as they just aimlessly wandered around, I got real ticked off and cant explain why. They have no sense of purpose or any idea what the price of their freedom really is. I just wanted to slap a couple of them and see if they would wake up.

And since Shawn had his driving incident, I noticed the same thing he reported. They are all jerks. and then all of a sudden, someone is nice to you and messes up that kind of thinking.

Aint life grand??

chapmick

05-13-2004, 10:26 PM

Stress usually refers to physical, psychological or spiritual demands fostered upon us. There is that 'canary' aspect about Veterans of War in that we seem to feel the stress of others FIRST! And then feel the need to wipe it out! It isn't the demands themselves, as much as "believing one way and living another way" that results in the feelings of stress. Stress is not the distance we pedal as much as it is the distance between what we value and what we do. When the people and activities that are important to us receive so little of our time and energy, we feel Stresssssed! And again we PTS folks have an immediate empathy with every flashed picture in the news, and we are helpless to do anything about it----just like the NAM. Our faith can help us to creatively deal with the value and action gap, rather than feel like we are in opposition to the gap. Saint Paul had that stuggle ya know.
"God is not far from each one of us....in HIM we live and move and have our being" Acts17:27-28 But then you say, "What about that jerk"! "Who's movin' him?" Same God, same pace-- except he is in our lane!

05-16-2004, 02:42 PM

this is something we have "forgot" and everytime I hear someone say it means nothing or leave GOD out of our lives, I just get nuts.

Patrick Henry: " It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." (1776)

We are in a battle for our very lives and well being and we are worried about who knew what and when.....when no apology has ever been forthcoming over 9-11 or any other attack on US interests around the world, from so called "clerics" and "peace loving" peoples. But our President profusely apologizes for the actions of a very few, and those few will be punished, and deservedly so, but why is it always a one way street? Kill maim and murder our citizens, and celebrate in the streets of muslim countries, but when the table is turned, we are always the bad guy?

Whats wrong with this picture?

You know what? I just can't get it through my thick skull, Dana, what this twisted up picture of one-sidedness is all about. Ya know, like...they take a guy, burn him to death, drag him through the streets with jeering celebrating crowds laughing at his blackened flesh falls off in pieces and that's horrific but that's not mentioned more than a couple days on all the networks and then, silence. Yes, I know I am being very graphic but remember, I too have seen death and tasted the aftermath and this kind of unfairness to the United States makes me furious down to my very soul. To where I have to hand it to God or just go plumb crazy thinking about it all. As you know, there is no such thing as never thinking about it again. The difference is how that thinking affects a person and how that person then deals with it with God's help. But I just don't get it. The picture! For it is a wrong picture indeed. It is so wrong that my sense of humaness and morality just cringes in some corner with disgust and wanting to exact revenge upon those ANIMALS and even tho I know from every corner of my soul that revenge is wrong, in the flesh where I am too human and not enuff like Jesus, these feelings rage with more frequency than I want to admit. Prayer and trying to keep a tight binding on myself is how I survive day to day.

But Oh..My! We have a few who exacted humiliation and did some very wrong things to the prisoners. Yes...that is wrong. Yes...two wrongs don't make a right. But I keep seeing a body burned, dragged, and a guy kneeling, not understanding that he had less than seconds to live before his head was decapitated. Horrors...two of many exacted against us, always with excuses, and we are supposed to just accept while little is done. Just accept and go about our lives while humanity is violated and animals disguised as humans go about their dastardly sick duties freely. I see the planes hitting the towers and can hear in my head the screaming and the death. And many have chosen to forget. Oh yes...they have. Watch FSTV (Free Speech T.V.) an excellant window on the minds and thoughts of Liberals. They have such programming as Cry of the People (dedicated to the Muslims who have been so mistreated and misjudged by us.) and DYKE T.V....I needn't describe this one. Get the picture.

We are the United States of America. We, the People have the right to have a voice. But do we really have a voice? Have we had a voice? We with PTSD struggle along hand in hand with God, doing our best to trust, have faith and live by grace and survive. Survive day by day...sometimes, minute by minute. On our knees to our creator, reaching out to take the hand of He who must lead us if we are to survive. But its a hard road we walk. When we are faced with the atrocities of daily life as it is today.

I will never understand the blindness of some people who just sit back and do not seem to really care about it one way or another. You and I know they are out there. Hiding behind blinders big as city blocks. I don't understand the greed of Washington when they claim to understand the needs of the poor as they get in their personal Limos and attend $500.00 a plate dinners.
I guess I am ignorant for I don't understand much of anything anymore.

Needed to purge so that i wouldn't explode and do something I just might be sorry for. Hang in there. That's all we can do. And keep praying. Oh, and that reminds me...you knew i can get pretty longwinded anyway. I pray so much for so many and for understanding and so on and so on that you know what? A lot of the time anymore, there is SO MUCH to pray about/for; that I am at a loss much of the time as to where to even begin. I have taken on some occassions, to just asking God to read my mind, my heart, my soul and know what my needs and intentions are as I don't even know half the time. That's all! carole

danausmc

05-16-2004, 07:52 PM

You know what? I just can't get it through my thick skull, Dana, what this twisted up picture of one-sidedness is all about. Ya know, like...they take a guy, burn him to death, drag him through the streets with jeering celebrating crowds laughing at his blackened flesh falls off in pieces and that's horrific but that's not mentioned more than a couple days on all the networks and then, silence. Yes, I know I am being very graphic but remember, I too have seen death and tasted the aftermath and this kind of unfairness to the United States makes me furious down to my very soul. To where I have to hand it to God or just go plumb crazy thinking about it all. As you know, there is no such thing as never thinking about it again. The difference is how that thinking affects a person and how that person then deals with it with God's help. But I just don't get it. The picture! For it is a wrong picture indeed. It is so wrong that my sense of humaness and morality just cringes in some corner with disgust and wanting to exact revenge upon those ANIMALS and even tho I know from every corner of my soul that revenge is wrong, in the flesh where I am too human and not enuff like Jesus, these feelings rage with more frequency than I want to admit. Prayer and trying to keep a tight binding on myself is how I survive day to day.

But Oh..My! We have a few who exacted humiliation and did some very wrong things to the prisoners. Yes...that is wrong. Yes...two wrongs don't make a right. But I keep seeing a body burned, dragged, and a guy kneeling, not understanding that he had less than seconds to live before his head was decapitated. Horrors...two of many exacted against us, always with excuses, and we are supposed to just accept while little is done. Just accept and go about our lives while humanity is violated and animals disguised as humans go about their dastardly sick duties freely. I see the planes hitting the towers and can hear in my head the screaming and the death. And many have chosen to forget. Oh yes...they have. Watch FSTV (Free Speech T.V.) an excellant window on the minds and thoughts of Liberals. They have such programming as Cry of the People (dedicated to the Muslims who have been so mistreated and misjudged by us.) and DYKE T.V....I needn't describe this one. Get the picture.

We are the United States of America. We, the People have the right to have a voice. But do we really have a voice? Have we had a voice? We with PTSD struggle along hand in hand with God, doing our best to trust, have faith and live by grace and survive. Survive day by day...sometimes, minute by minute. On our knees to our creator, reaching out to take the hand of He who must lead us if we are to survive. But its a hard road we walk. When we are faced with the atrocities of daily life as it is today.

I will never understand the blindness of some people who just sit back and do not seem to really care about it one way or another. You and I know they are out there. Hiding behind blinders big as city blocks. I don't understand the greed of Washington when they claim to understand the needs of the poor as they get in their personal Limos and attend $500.00 a plate dinners.
I guess I am ignorant for I don't understand much of anything anymore.

Needed to purge so that i wouldn't explode and do something I just might be sorry for. Hang in there. That's all we can do. And keep praying. Oh, and that reminds me...you knew i can get pretty longwinded anyway. I pray so much for so many and for understanding and so on and so on that you know what? A lot of the time anymore, there is SO MUCH to pray about/for; that I am at a loss much of the time as to where to even begin. I have taken on some occassions, to just asking God to read my mind, my heart, my soul and know what my needs and intentions are as I don't even know half the time. That's all! carole

Nice post Carole. I have been trying to stay away from politics, but all you have said is true and the whole thing makes me very angry.

But what has really been on my mind is the great apathy among our own citizens. Most of them dont even know where Iraq is, let alone Bosnia or Afghanistan. They just dont have a clue.

But Marines and soldiers are dying. Too often.

The war is being won on the ground, but lost here at home by apathy, indifference and appeasment.

Sounds like 1969 to me. And I guess that is why I am so incensed.

Dana

Reconvic

05-18-2004, 09:16 AM

Shawn Powell

05-18-2004, 12:19 PM

Hey Vic,

How about you keep posting... keep giving us SITREPs on your status. I am praying for you now, bro. Jesus can get us through it, man. It's His strength and mercy and grace that keeps us going. He chose you, baby boy... called you by name and saw you before you were ever conceived. I pray that you rest in Him, Vic... and trust your brothers on this sight, hooah?

If you feel more comfortable, you can give me a ring to talk. It is long distance though... 509-327-0773... usually between 2000-2200 PST is best.

You are in His grip, Marine.

Shawn.

Reconvic

05-18-2004, 12:32 PM

Shawn I was with 1st Recon Batt. In the Nam and did many things I felt was morally wrong yet I was under orders. I also have Hepatitis C which I wen thru the trement and it fail. I am 100% disabiled with both the VA and SS.
I cannot fight my liver problems I will die early the VA said. I have seen my shrink at the VA and we went thru all everything and I was doing better , until my wife now decieds to leave me after 38 years.I need her now more then ever. I truely thank you all for your concern, I am trying to keep it together but it now is becoming very hard.
Semper Fi Vic

danausmc

05-18-2004, 09:05 PM

Dana I think I am losing the battle with my health and wife also now that I need her the most I am sure she is going to leave me. I am at my wits end because I still am hurt and very angry. I was at the VA yesterday and things are not looking good in my head as well as my liver. I pray for God to help me. If something happens to me forgive me bro!.
Semper Fi Vic

Vic, I was beginning to worry about you. Even under these circumstances, I am glad to hear from you. The shrinks dont know everything. and maybe you should just take it easy and sit with your wife and listen, 38 years is a long time to just give up on. Everyone here on this site, and I am sure some of the others where I have seen you post at, are and, will pray for you and your home life.

You're still breathing air and that means you have a chance to make it right.
I am around after 8PM my time every day if you want to talk. Or you can just e-mail me if that is more comfortable for you. 716-675-5552, I have an 800 number too...1-800-877-VETS, but Lee will answer that in California.

DONT Even think of giving up. It aint in your vocabulary.
S/F
Dana

Shawn Powell

05-19-2004, 07:30 AM

DITTO VIC...!

WHAT DANA SAID!!!

Shawn.

Reconvic

05-19-2004, 08:11 AM

Vic, I was beginning to worry about you. Even under these circumstances, I am glad to hear from you. The shrinks dont know everything. and maybe you should just take it easy and sit with your wife and listen, 38 years is a long time to just give up on. Everyone here on this site, and I am sure some of the others where I have seen you post at, are and, will pray for you and your home life.

You're still breathing air and that means you have a chance to make it right.
I am around after 8PM my time every day if you want to talk. Or you can just e-mail me if that is more comfortable for you. 716-675-5552, I have an 800 number too...1-800-877-VETS, but Lee will answer that in California.

DONT Even think of giving up. It aint in your vocabulary.
S/F
Dana

Dana, I am going to try and see if the VA will help me tomorrow I have an appointment. Besides you and my sons, I really have no other reason to keep going on, it won't be much longer with my liver anyway. I don't want to be a bed ridden, I would rather life not due that to me too. Thanks for all your prayers, you all are in mine also. God Bless you all.

usmc26th

05-19-2004, 03:07 PM

Dana, I am going to try and see if the VA will help me tomorrow I have an appointment. Besides you and my sons, I really have no other reason to keep going on, it won't be much longer with my liver anyway. I don't want to be a bed ridden, I would rather life not due that to me too. Thanks for all your prayers, you all are in mine also. God Bless you all.

Vic, don't know what I can add, to what has allready been said, one thing, be strong in god and remenber Marines never give up, there is always a way, we as human,s have to have enought faith and trust to find it. There are alot of people pulling for you.

chapmick

05-20-2004, 12:52 AM

Heh Reocn. I sent through a private email with my phone number- thought I may as well post it here too. I am here in Tucson, Arizona. My wife and I will go anywhere to assist you. Have you ever spoken to a Naturopathic Doctor about your liver condition? Call anytime 520-795-2223 or pager 24/7/ 520-540-0258. Mike and Lydia Brewer
Remember mi amigo "Semper Fi" ain't just a concept, it has feet and muscle. Howabout a little "Retreat" somewhere?

Shawn Powell

05-20-2004, 07:44 AM

Mornin Marine....

This high-speed army grunt is just checking on you... I've been praying and thinking about you. Rest in His mercy and grace, Vic... sometimes that's all we can do. Gimme a sitrep....

Shawn.

Dean Black

05-20-2004, 02:41 PM

:dancing: Deano reporting in sir, Good Heavens I've wanted to do that for so long. Sorry I was AWOL for a bit, I took a much needed vacation and went to Florida. I just needed to get away for a bit and clear the old firing line. I have been reading the posts to visit with you guys without interupting. The Doctor changed some of my medicine and my blood sugar went out of kilter. I spoke with a Shrink about testing for PTSD, I explained some of the things which give me anger control problems; his next statement almost put me in shock, but was the best advice anyone can get. The Doctor told me that I was supposed to turn that stuff over to God. I came home with that ringing inside my head like the Liberty Bell'. And you know what", I took his advice because it really works. I"m back ready to roll. Dean

Shawn Powell

05-21-2004, 07:39 AM

Let's Roll!!!! Hooah!!!

danausmc

06-03-2004, 03:20 AM

hey all, Im back and ready to roll also, trip to DC was great and will post some pics tonight. got a letter from my young friend in Iraq yesterday and will share some of it also. have to get to work, so will be back after 8PM tonight.
Dana

danausmc

06-03-2004, 08:39 PM

Washington

chapmick

06-17-2004, 02:06 AM

How is everyone in the PMIM Country Club? I am back too. Been on the road since June 2nd. Went to 7th Marines Reunion and then off to help a few dudes in California with their claims. Back to the sweltering heat of Tucson. So whats new? Anyone heard from Vic?

danausmc

06-17-2004, 03:18 AM

Trooper

06-19-2004, 09:24 PM

chapmick

Welcome Back!

ajusmc

06-21-2004, 08:29 AM

Vic, how about a SITREP so we know how things are going.

chapmick

06-22-2004, 03:28 AM

Is there any way we can discover how Vic is doing? Can Dana check on him. The silence is daunting. Mic

danausmc

06-22-2004, 06:10 PM

Is there any way we can discover how Vic is doing? Can Dana check on him. The silence is daunting. Mic

I sent a couple e-mails , some came back as undelerivable and some were received , but Vic has not responded. Viv has forwarded a couple e-mails to me regarding a sad event at another iste, but not direct contact. I continue to pray for him and his health, and situation. Im sure when he is ready, we will hear from him.

Dana

chapmick

06-24-2004, 03:32 PM

On behalf of any new viewers, or new members of this fine PMIM website, it struck me that it may be helpful if some of us, who are willing, provide a little more background about ourselves. (It was really my wife's idea!) So for what it is worth, here is a little Bio.
I was born in South Bend, Indiana and raised in Dixon, Illinios(Reagans hometown) until age 11. We moved to Tucson, Arizona in 1959. This has been my primary domicile since then. College and Seminary School in California. Dropped out in 1966 and joned the Marine Corps.Vietnam 68-69;7th Marines. Finished college later at the University of Arizona in Philosophy and Religious Studies. Used my GI Bill to attend an RN Nursing Program at the local community college. I worked for 7 years on a Psychiatric Unit of a local hospital. Grew to dislike the conventional approach to Psychiatic care, and the fact that the Doc's did not know #%^&* about Veterans and PTSD. So I left the whole vocation and was a commercial property manager for 24 years. I burried myself in work- which is one of the better ways to avoid PTS demons- Or so you think!
I fell into the category of "Wounded Healer". I had tons of certificates as a therapist, but none of them went deep enough to touch my own PTS.
I was hospitalized with a variety of service connected health problems; Agent Orange, Head Injury, and the ghosts of combat, in 1997. It took another 4 years to drop the masks of pride and allow myself to go through a 3 week In-patient program for PTSD. It was the most intelligent decision, save my marriage and choosing to follow Jesus, that I ever made. I was diagnosed 100% 'permanent and total' on Janurary 31st,2001. I have my heart and soul back. What I learned in that program will take me a lifetime to share with my comrades in arms. I am now a trained VSO and completing a hospital chaplain program. I will be doing the work of the Lord the rest of my mortal days on earth. So do not be afraid to ask me anything at any time. I am available 24/7, for Veterans/Wives/ Children and the curious.
I am married to Lydia and have 3 grown children. 32-27-22 and 3 grandkids.
I also have a collection of lawyers and doctors and a Nurse Practioner who will provide me advice on an 'as needed' basis, for Veterans. Our collection of helping hands and minds is called 'Agape Network" . We are often able to help disabled Veterans with some of the stickier problems of daily living, be it real estate or legal. No one makes any money.
We are currently working on a Co-Housing Project,in the Arizona Desert, that would be a cooperative community of Veterans on pensions, living in separate dwellings,(many with PTS) but sharing living costs, eg food,transportation, leisure. This is a 4-5 year enterprise.
In the meantime if you need a little help to get through the day, please use the collective wisdom of this PMIM site and its caring managers.
Pray for Peace, Mic

chapmick

07-03-2004, 02:03 AM

I will be gone to Mexico for the rest of the month of July. If I get accesss to a computer there, I will check in here at PMIM. Happy 4th to all! Mic

ajusmc

07-03-2004, 04:58 AM

Have a safe trip Mic and God be with you

Desertvet

07-15-2004, 11:19 AM

Intense !!!!

That what all this is to me right now. I am a Desert Storm Veteran and felt as if I could not have PTSD. My Fiance is the public affairs officer at the VA regional office in Muskogee, OK (yes I am proud to be an Okie). She has been telling me that I may have PTSD. I told her no way, I am fine. The more research I have done on the topic the more I feel as if I do have it. In Desert Storm my Squadron only had one casualty, I did know him and was a friend. I cannot compare this to those in Vietnam, or even those over there right now. I did see massive amounts of Death and Distruction while over in the Desert. Most being enemy soldiers. Since my departure from the military I cannot remember anything about the time spent in the desert. I do know that I was there and that I did kill people. I do know that my unit killed alot of people. I was there for only about 6 months and it is 6 months that I have only few memories about. Since returning to civillian life, I have changed tremendously. I used to be extremely out going and friendly, and now I find myself not wanting to get close to anyone. I distance myself from people I used to know and even members of my family. Without God in my life I actually think that I could live in a cave and be happy. PTSD is real and is a major factor in many veterans lives. I think to all those men and women who are returning now and will find themselves bored with civillian life. I have had jobs since i got out and they usually hold my interest for 2 years max. I get as high as I can go then burnout sets in. I have never been fired from a job and have had some great ones. I get bored and keep looking. It was not until recently that I found Jesus standing at my door telling me he has been there the whole time. I denied the fact that I gave my life to him as a pre teen and forgotten the peace and security knowing him gives a person. We are only here for a short time and we need to accomplish as much for Jesus as we can. Not for ourselves but for the one who died and gave his life so that we may live forever. Thank god for this website and the Pointman ministry. Ive needed this and god sent me here this morning. I will be on quite frequently I am sure and look forward to getting to know some of you even though you may be a marine..... he he. Just a joke my blood runs Army green.

God bless,

Trooper

07-15-2004, 02:41 PM

Desertvet

Welcome to the site. Although there aren't many of us Army types around.

PS These Marines aren't half bad to fellowship with.

Shawn Powell

07-19-2004, 07:42 AM

Dickinson,

You're pretty close to the "Holy" city of Tulsa, aren't you? Welcome aboard, brother... you and I were probably on the same piece of real estate back in 1990-91.

God Bless. Shawn.
101st ABN Div (AASLT) DesertShield/ Desert Storm
41st IN BDE ORARNG, OIF '03

chapmick

07-20-2004, 03:44 PM

Hello my friends- just back from a short excursion. Glad to be back to the PMIM Batallion! I hear from the Doc at the VET Center here, that 1 out 5 men returning to our fair city from Iraqi Freedom are seeking help at the Center. Wow 20%! That is alot higher than Nam and Desert Storm. Why do you all think that is?
For my Army pals out there- here is a good one that came from our Navy Medic at my 7th Marines Reunion. "Why is there no such thing as a former Marine"?
"It is because you cannot reverse a lobotomy" ! Don't shoot me now Dana!!

Dean Black

07-23-2004, 06:56 PM

Hello everyone, most of you don't know me, and I have been derelict in participation of the forum. I have had some medical setbacks but I am on the comeback. For those who don't know me, my name is Dean and I am a Viet Nam Vet who also served in the Army. I am client of the Charlotte, NC Vet Center. They are a fine bunch of people who have helped me in making contact with a lot of hurting Vets, as well as helping me. I will be a part of this forum from tonight on. "AirBorne" and Sember FI" or what ever". Sorry Dana, AJ.

Trooper

07-25-2004, 09:33 AM

Dean

Allons, and welcome to the fold. We'll keep your continued good health in Prayer.

Dean Black

07-25-2004, 05:29 PM

Thanks for receiving me, I served 35 months during the Viet Nam eraI was in the Dominican Revolution 1965-66, the 173rd 67-68, and 5th SF CCn (SOG) 69-70. You might say I was a glutton for punishment. I will come up on the forum and join in where possible and post replys or ask questions because you guys help me a lot more than I could ever help you.

Trooper

07-26-2004, 12:26 PM

Dean

I served from 68-70 in Nam, with 1st Log, 52nd Feild Artillery and 11th Aromored Cavalry. I went in country as a Wrench Puller and left as a FO, you figure.

I Volinteered for the Army, Viet Nam, and a second tour.

After 6 years in the Army I spent 2 years in the NY National Guard, then 2 more in the CA National Guard.

Your not the only a glutton for punishment! :opps:

Dean Black

08-13-2004, 04:40 AM

I have a question for all my Marine Brother's. How many of you were at Marble Mountain in 1968 when the Barber went up in the tower and gave the Guard a close shave (cut his throat) then cut the wire and led a company of Sappers in the little project between Marble mountain and the POW Compound? I came into the project a year after that happened.

chapmick

08-16-2004, 12:05 AM

Yes Dean I do know the story--- I think you are talking about a CAP Unit that was on the Beach between the MAG Units and the Mountain. I was transfered there out of the bush,(7th Marines) on March 10th,1969 and left for the "World" on September 2nd,1969; the day Ho Chi Minh died. I used to tell everyone I got him on my way out!!
The barbers in the wire stories were all too frequent for me. It use to be one of my 'intrusive thoughts' before doing the treatment program. Had a gaping hole in the wire one morning when we went to check the claymores. 50 bloody feet in front of my perimeter bunker!!! Good God the kid says---how was he so quiet? Can you imagine what perimeter watch was like the next night?
Glad to be back in the PMIM corral for awhile. Should be staying put now until November. Hope to be posting more. Mic

Dean Black

08-16-2004, 10:16 PM

Hey Chapmick we are definetly on the same page but we have two seperate incidents. The one I was referring to happened to the Project at the base of Marble Mountain North side. The barber made buddies with the indegenious commandos and August 1968 he eased up on the berm and passed out snacks, got their confidence and took snacks up in the guard tower. While the Guard was eating his food, the barber came up behind him and cut his throat. He went to a blind spot and cut the perimeter wire and led a company of sappers and assault force into the Project. The VC had detailed plans of the entire base with one error on it. They confused the buildings as to where the officers and enlisted slept. They put the attack in motion by throwing satchel charges in the windows and put two assault troops at each end of the building with AK47's to cut down surviors as they ran out of the building. The building they started the attack on was the enlisted Bldg. Two men got shot outside the doors but the rest came out in pairs firing full automatic catching the VC by surprise and killing them. The NCO'S regrouped and counter attacked the VC at the officers bldg. By this time they had a full counter-attack going forcing the VC to retreat toward the berm. When the attack first started, all the Montagnards went straight to the perimeter and set up a blocking force. The counter-attack pushed the VC into the blocking forces. When first light came it revealed a very grizzley sight. The entire VC Force was hanging spread eagle on the perimeter wire, all dead and hacked up. The blocking force was our Hatchet Force. I arrived at 5th SFG CCN (command & control) SOG October 1969 and was assigned to Company B Hatchet Force which saw most of the action calling for a hatchet Force. I was assigned to the room where the first Satchel charge landed. I very seldom slept in that room, if I was sober I was on the berm with my Yard's; if I was drunk they watched over me. But I will never forget my room with the scorched floor. Cheers".
Dean

Reconvic

08-18-2004, 05:37 PM

ajusmc

08-18-2004, 05:49 PM

Glad your OK Vic, been worried about ya. Thanks for the Sitrep Bro, these are the good type when your doing better. I'll continue with the prayers

dallee

08-18-2004, 05:58 PM

Good to see you are back and in better spirits Vic. Keep posting.

danausmc

08-18-2004, 06:22 PM

Well I am back and doing a lot better then when I was here last. Just wanted to thanks everyone for the prayers. I was in the Phx. Va Hospital for a bit but got a better grip on life again . Thanks to all.
Semper Fi Vic

hey Vic, good to hear you are OK. how are the other issues we talked about when you left??

Hope all is ok. there also.
Dana

Reconvic

08-19-2004, 01:17 PM

ajusmc

08-19-2004, 04:21 PM

AJ the other issues are still real hard on me. after 32 years of marriage it is hard to not have the one you love, return that love bro. I am having a very hard time with that but I guess that will pass too. Thks Bro Semper Fi. Vic
They say time heals all wounds, that maybe true. It doesn't take away memories. Only your inner strenght, believe in yourself and the strong believes in God shine thru.

Reconvic

08-21-2004, 11:21 AM

AJ you are right in many ways. Life goes on with the steath God gives us even when we feel everything is lost, we wake up and give thanks for that.
May the Lord help us all, beleive and he will.
S.F. Vic

They say time heals all wounds, that maybe true. It doesn't take away memories. Only your inner strenght, believe in yourself and the strong believes in God shine thru.

dallee

08-21-2004, 12:19 PM

God loves you Vic. We stand here as God's hands to hold you and to hold up. This is a time for you to draw closer to God. Allow yourself the pleasures that can come only from him. It is not required for you to suffer the pain of lonlieness. The holy spirit will bring you inside of the holy of holies where you can touch the very face of God. The joy that will overwhelm your soul is inexpressible. Enjoy this day in your Lord, Vic.

Trooper

08-21-2004, 05:21 PM

Vic

Your in our Prayers!

Psalm 100:4-5

Enter into His gates with thanksgiving,
And into His courts with praise.
Be thankful to Him, and bless His name.
For the LORD is good;
His mercy is everlasting,
And His truth endures to all generations.

Reconvic

08-22-2004, 10:35 AM

I thank you all for your thoughts and prayers, life is hard at times, but this to shall pass. May the lord give us the strength to carry on.
Semper Fi Vic

danausmc

09-04-2004, 08:34 PM

Well we are back up and running.....
There was a technical problem with the site and we were down but not out.

There is a whole new generation of warriors coming home and will have the same issues as all the previous combatants since time inmemorial. Its time for us to get squared away a give a hand to our younger brothers and sisters and that is what this site is about.....not forgetting who we are or those that are still dealing with issues from the past, (including me.)

Someone asked me why I am so angry in another post......I been thinking about that ever since.

Want to re-visit anger or start a new discussion??

Im open for anything.

Dana

Reconvic

09-05-2004, 11:37 AM

Dana That was bothering me I couldn't get on the site and was worried it was on my end bro. I hope all my brothers here are doing fine. I am taking it day by day at this point in my life. My PTSD VA doctor is leaving so I will get another one soon I hope. My home life is pretty alone at this time, but at least I have my brothers here and at some other sites.Thanks to all for your prayers, May the Lord bless you all.
Semper FI Vic

Trooper

09-05-2004, 02:51 PM

Vic

Even though we weren't able to visit by Computer, doesn't mean we stop praying for each other. Telephone lines are available an an alternative. We're continually holding you up in prayer.

Reconvic

09-06-2004, 12:35 PM

Trooper; I cannot tell you what you all mean to me. You all talked me into seeking help at the VA before I did something stupid. I pray for all here and to those that need to learn of this site and are still lost as I was. I thank the Lord for his help each day to carry on. Bless you all.
Semper Fi Vic

Vic

Even though we weren't able to visit by Computer, doesn't mean we stop praying for each other. Telephone lines are available an an alternative. We're continually holding you up in prayer.

Trooper

09-06-2004, 07:17 PM

Vic

Brother I need you as much as you need me. As far as stupid mistakes go, that's what I majored in. We all need brothers to (in Love) slap us back in line.

Brother, not only are you Loved and respected, but your needed as well.

danausmc

01-12-2005, 08:26 PM

Post Traumatic Stress:
The war may be over, but the battle has just begun ...

By Arikka Johnson
Army Flier Living Edito
Thursday, January 6, 2005

(Editor's Note: This article was originally published in the May 13, 2004, issues of the Army Flier.)

The sound coming from the back of the building - a low and rising whine - startles him, and he begins to search for his nuclear, biological and chemical kit. His adrenaline rushes just for a moment when he realizes where he is ... in a restaurant, eating dinner with his family. The sound is only the noise from a busy kitchen.

Would this be considered post traumatic stress disorder? Should this be considered a serious incident, even though it only occurred once or twice upon a Soldier's return from the war?

Maybe.

Maybe not.

But if this type of reaction, in addition to other symptoms, continues, the Soldier may be suffering and may need help.

Combat-related post traumatic stress disorder is one of many ways a veteran exhibits difficulties adjusting to normal life after experiencing war. Whenever an individual is exposed to a potentially traumatic experience, there is the potential for post traumatic stress. The chronic nature of these adjustment difficulties is what defines a PTSD sufferer.

Symptoms are varied, but distinct. According to Dr. MassI Wyatt, a doctor of behavioral medicine at the U.S. Army Aeromedical Center, PTSD can be diagnosed if a Soldier suffers a certain number of symptoms from each of three symptom groups: re-experiencing, avoidance/numbing and hyperarousal. To qualify for chronic PTSD, these symptoms will last more than a month and cause severe personal, interpersonal and/or professional distress.

According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, published by the American Psychiatric Association, re-experiencing would be defined as frequent, sudden and upsetting memories, including certain images and thoughts about the event.

Avoidance and numbing would be defined as feeling detached from family, friends and co-workers and making efforts to avoid talking, thinking and feeling about the traumatic event.

Hyperarousal would include such things as problems falling or staying asleep, outbursts of anger and irritability and feeling hyper-alert and easily startled. These symptoms may start to appear within several weeks of the traumatic event or the symptoms may lay latent for months or years and then show up after additional stressors arise.

People suffering from PTSD may exhibit signs of anxiety or even major depression. Physical symptoms, such as stomach pains, respiratory problems, headaches, muscular cramping, low back pain and cardiovascular problems may also challenge the sufferer. Substance abuse can also be a tell-tale sign of this disorder.

These symptoms can be caused by any number of experiences during a war. Being fired upon is only one of the many different severe stresses of the war zone, according to Wyatt.

"It is important to appreciate the various types of demands, stresses and potentially traumatizing events that war veterans may have experienced," said Wyatt. "Chronic PTSD can be caused by a number of experiences."

Combat exposure entails firing a weapon, being fired upon by enemy or friendly fire, or being witness to injury and death. Also, voluntarily going out on patrols, with these potential experiences awaiting, can cause severe stress.

The aftermath of battle, to include handling the dying, the dead and enemy Soldiers, and dealing with devastated communities and homeless refugees, can also contribute to the trauma experienced.

Anticipating potential exposure to NBC weapons, the difficulty of living and working in a war zone, concerns over family and other important issues can overtax a Soldier's coping mechanisms and leave him susceptible to post traumatic stress.

Many people will be able to handle the stress of the battlefield and go on to lead functional lives. Wyatt recommends those who cannot maintain normal responses to combat seek immediate treatment.

Treatment for PTSD must begin as soon as possible after combat in order to prevent a Soldier's life from degrading. The possibility of depression, substance abuse and other psychological problems will lead to PTSD if untreated. Medication, reconditioning strategies and support therapy can reduce the problems associated with post-traumatic trauma, and the quality of a Soldier's life can be restored.

"Intervening in areas of disfunction and providing an active support structure is vital," said Wyatt, "so that life can go on in a healthy manner."

According to the National Center for PTSD, education is the key to caring for a veteran suffering from the disorder. Educating the Soldier and his family and providing support through a trained clinician can often be a big part of the solution to post-traumatic stress reactions.

Training in coping strategies is an important component to successful treatment. According to Wyatt, learning how to accept and deal with the loss of control of emotions and responses to those emotions is useful and restores a Soldier's stress management skills.

"Anxiety management, breathing and relaxation training, emotional grounding, anger management and communication skills building all help empower the veteran," Wyatt said. Another component to treatment for PTSD is exposure therapy. This repeated verbalization of the traumatic events help to correct skewed perceptions of their personal trauma and strengthen the coping responses the Soldier is learning or relearning.

"Cognitive behavioral therapy," said Wyatt, "which means restructuring healthy emotional and behavioral patterns, identifying and resolving personal negative beliefs and developing new approaches to thinking about the traumatic event, may bring further stability to a Soldier's life after war."

The involvement of family, a Soldier's primary source of support, can exponentially increase the success of the other components of PTSD healthcare.

"Family acknowledgment and engagement can create breakthroughs in recovery," said Wyatt. "The involvement of a Soldier's family is vital to getting back to a normal life." The Family Advocacy program on Fort Rucker has many resources to aid in dealing with combat-related stress. Stella Davis, program manager, said that life's traumatic experiences can be overcome with recognizing the symptoms in oneself and others, seeking professional help and supporting community programs that help PTSD survivors and their families.

Working on preventative measures to reduce the number of people suffering from PTSD, the Army developed a program in 2003 to help Soldiers when redeploying from war operations.

"The Deployment Cycle Support Program is a multi-layered approach to support an individual's well-being and is designed to provide a smooth transition for Soldiers as they return home," said Wyatt. "Soldiers have access to individual reintegration training - briefings on everything from medical benefits to family reunification. Each Soldier will be assessed by professionals for further treatment, if needed."

"We offer reintegration training and support through our office as well," said Davis. "Group briefings occur whenever Fort Rucker Soldiers return from a combat deployment." Not every case of PTSD is combat related. Fort Rucker's Department of Behavioral Medicine treats anyone suffering from a traumatic event, from a person involved in a helicopter crash to a sexual assault victim. For further information, please call the Department of Behavioral Medicine at the USAAMC at 255-7028 or the Family Advocacy Program at 255-3898.

A combat stress support group meets every Wednesday at 3 p.m. at the DBM clinic at USAAMC. Army One Source also provides information and referrals for active duty Soldiers, Reservists, National Guardsmen and retirees. Go online to www.armyonesource.com or call 800-464-8107.

~The Agent Orange Quilt Of Tears~
As it was their job to defend our freedom,
So it becomes our job to honor their memories….RGS